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"Moldy Tater Gangrene, even before Moscow Marge."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20
Point #1:
Brazil had millions of more slave than America
Point #2:
Brazil still ended slavery in 1888 without any civil war
Again, to say America would’ve continued slavery to this day, beyond Brazil is hilarious. Slavery was a dying inefficient non-sustainable means of production which explains why the South lost so badly in the Civil War.
Truth is, the folks in the south pretty much died for a system that was dying anyway. This is why many people say the South fought for states rights, not for slavery.
You're giving the ordinary folks of the south too much credit for nuance. The typical white southerner would simply see "The Planters aren't paying their slaves money, aside from basic shelter and food and clothing. Less than an ordinary farm worker. Therefore those people are making money". And even without this, there's still the aesthetic argument - the slaves look different from us, very different; therefore they're not deserving of the rights WE have.
The common man fights for his country. The rich man supports fights for his business interests. That includes being the least-bad off person in a dying system. If slavery collapsed peacefully, there's no way the former-rich would be in as bad a position as the other "peons".
Cuba & Brazil were successful in ending slavery because those enslaved outnumbered the slavers.
Underlying cause of the outnumbering is the simple fact the folks in Cuba & Brazil acknowledged their children.
Stating the obvious, this was not the case in the US Slave States. Nor was it to be in the proposed CSA based on their Constitution & supported by the Slave States 'ways of life', custom, culture, social mores, etc.
If your business interest involves using slaves, then obviously it’s convenient to go ahead and enshrine that I to the constitution while they’re writing it. That is until it no longer becomes economically viable.
It’s just as logical to assume a country who breaks away to preserve slavery would be just as capable as the country they broke away from at the eventual ending of it. The north didn’t blacks anymore as equals as the south, they simply didn’t require their labor.
Slavery was always about so much more than numbers.
The slaves in Congo outnumbered their slavers by many times. And that region was not enslaved at all until well after the Civil War had ended. King Leopold (Belgium) managed to keep it hidden from the public until the 20th century. Millions died.
So I say, "No, there was nothing they could do for themselves". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost
Slavery was always about so much more than numbers.
The slaves in Congo outnumbered their slavers by many times. And that region was not enslaved at all until well after the Civil War had ended. King Leopold (Belgium) managed to keep it hidden from the public until the 20th century. Millions died.
So I say, "No, there was nothing they could do for themselves". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost
Agreeing "slavery was always about so much more than numbers" although the history of slavery cannot be thoroughly understood (& thereby learned from) when there is historical distortion & evasion.
The following is excerpted from Mr. Hochschild's reply to Mr. Vellut in The New York Review of Books:
Quote:
...What happened in the Congo—and the similar, tragically ignored bloodbath in surrounding Portuguese, French, and German colonies—was not genocide. ... However, his letter does not respond to a principal criticism I had of the exhibit, namely that it displayed virtually nothing about a major cause of this high death toll, the colony’s pervasive, long-lasting forced labor system.
For a museum exhibit about colonialism almost anywhere in Africa to ignore this is to be like one of those elegant restored plantation houses in the American South where the tour guides avoid mentioning slavery. ...
‘In the Heart of Darkness’
Jean-Luc Vellut, reply by Adam Hochschild JANUARY 12, 2006 ISSUE
In response to:
In the Heart of Darkness from the October 6, 2005 issue
A culture and attitude to break free wasn't present enough among slaves to consolidate plans. The dominant emotions were fear and timidity. Plus, there was no real mechanism to communicate together between plantations and groups, to plan anything, even if they got to that point. Also, access to sufficient weapons and familiarity with using them was another matter.
John Brown tried to remedy some of that, but falsely assumed that large numbers were at the point of open rebellion.
A culture and attitude to break free wasn't present enough among slaves to consolidate plans. The dominant emotions were fear and timidity. Plus, there was no real mechanism to communicate together between plantations and groups, to plan anything, even if they got to that point. Also, access to sufficient weapons and familiarity with using them was another matter.
John Brown tried to remedy some of that, but falsely assumed that large numbers were at the point of open rebellion.
As per Henry Louis Gates, Jr:
"One of the most pernicious allegations made against the African-American people was that our slave ancestors were either exceptionally “docile” or “content and loyal,” thus explaining their purported failure to rebel extensively. Some even compare enslaved Americans to their brothers and sisters in Brazil, Cuba, Suriname and Haiti, the last of whom defeated the most powerful army in the world, Napoleon’s army, becoming the first slaves in history to successfully strike a blow for their own freedom."
If the objective or goal is to learn from history so as not to repeat grave mistakes, how is it helpful to propagate historical distortion & evasion?
Quote:
1663: First serious slave conspiracy in Colonial America:
White servants and black slaves conspire to revolt in Gloucester County, VA, but are betrayed by a fellow servant.
1739: The Stono Rebellion
The deadliest revolt in Colonial America takes place in Stono, SC. Armed slaves start marching to Florida and towards freedom, but the insurrection is put down and at least 20 whites and more than 40 blacks are killed.
1791: Haiti slave revolt
Former slave Toussaint L'Ouverture leads a slave revolt in Haiti, West Indies. He is captured in 1802, but the revolt continues and Haitian independence is declared. Southerners are terrified by these events as they discourage the importation of slaves into the United States.
1800: Gabriel Prosser’s rebellion
In the spring of 1800, Prosser, a deeply religious man, begins plotting an invasion of Richmond, Virginia and an attack on its armory. By summer he has enlisted more than 1,000 slaves and collected an armory of weapons, organizing the first large-scale slave revolt in the U.S. On the day of the revolt, the bridges leading to Richmond are destroyed in a flood, and Prosser is betrayed. The state militia attacks, and Prosser and 35 of his men are hanged.
1811: Louisiana revolt
Louisiana slaves revolt in two parishes near New Orleans. The revolt is suppressed by U.S. troops.
1816: Fort Blount revolt
Three hundred slaves and about 20 Native American allies hold Fort Blount on Apalachicola Bay, Florida for several days before being attacked by U.S. troops.
1822: Denmark Vesey’s revolt
A freed man, Vesey had won a lottery and purchased his emancipation in 1800. He is working as a carpenter in Charleston, South Carolina when he starts to plan a massive slave rebellion—one of the most elaborate plots in American history—involving thousands of slaves on surrounding plantations, organized into cells. They would start a major fire at night, and then kill the slave owners and their families. Vesey is betrayed and hanged, but the cell structure prevents officials from identifying other leaders.
1831: Nat Turner’s revolt
Nat Turner plans a slave revolt in Southampton County, Virginia, the only effective, sustained slave rebellion in U.S. history. Sixty whites are killed before Turner and his followers are captured and hanged.
Agreeing "slavery was always about so much more than numbers" although the history of slavery cannot be thoroughly understood (& thereby learned from) when there is historical distortion & evasion.
The following is excerpted from Mr. Hochschild's reply to Mr. Vellut in The New York Review of Books:
‘In the Heart of Darkness’
Jean-Luc Vellut, reply by Adam Hochschild JANUARY 12, 2006 ISSUE
In response to:
In the Heart of Darkness from the October 6, 2005 issue
I can't tell from your post; are you aware that the 'fiction' novel Heart of Darkness was actually fact based and is a reflection of what Joseph Conrad actually saw when he operated a boat in Congo?
There is a movie based on Heart of Darkness here in the US. They changed both the title and the location, but it is all based on events in Congo around 1900 - maybe a little before.
The name of the movie is Apocalypse Now.
I can't tell from your post; are you aware that the 'fiction' novel Heart of Darkness was actually fact based and is a reflection of what Joseph Conrad actually saw when he operated a boat in Congo?
There is a movie based on Heart of Darkness here in the US. They changed both the title and the location, but it is all based on events in Congo around 1900 - maybe a little before.
The name of the movie is Apocalypse Now.
The historical events that occurred in the Congo, & in the surrounding Portuguese, French, & German colonies, is analogous to the historical events that occurred in the antebellum United States.
For any historical account to ignore the variously-named & long-lasting systems of race-based forced labor & its long-lasting impact & influences is to deem that accounting guilty of historical distortion, evasion, & harmful revisionism.
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