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Patton was cetainly not an idiot, he was very well educated on military history going back thousands of years. He was the best general we had and most people back home did not care that he slapped a yellow belly soldier, had he killed him it would of been a different matter. It's too bad he let his temper get the best of him, and I agree he would of done a better job than Bradley.
But getting back to the no american involvement thing, once again lend lease made all the difference for Britian's ability to maintain air supremacy. The RAF won by a razor thin margin, RADAR had alot to do with it, but assistance from the Americans also had to be a deciding factor. The V2's launch sights would of never been knocked out without the Normandy invasion, and Normandy would not have happened either. England might have suffered a land invasion however, if the Germans gained control of the air. I doubt the Germans would have done that without securing Russia first.
In Russia it would have been critical for the germans to get the rail lines back up to bring in supplies from Poland and Germany. They had to protect those trains from sabotage at all costs because they did not have enough planes to supply the army. No doubt that with every train coming in from the west with supplies, every train going back to poland would be loaded up with Russians to be dropped off at the concentration camps.
The Americans had almost nothing to do with the air superiority of the RAF during the Battle of Britain. It was radar, an effective air defense system, and fighter aircraft that matched the Germans - especially the Spitfire that was able to hold its own with the ME-109's and therefore leave the bombers to the Hurricanes - that won the Battle of Britain.
Explain to me how the Germans are going to invade England after 1941 with no surface navy to speak of, no landing craft, and no control of the air?
The V-2's, while an effective weapon against cities because they just needed to land somewhere in order to kill people, would never have won the war for the Germans.
[quote=mofford;11901376]Patton was cetainly not an idiot, he was very well educated on military history going back thousands of years. He was the best general we had and most people back home did not care that he slapped a yellow belly soldier, .................. The V2's launch sights would of never been knocked out without the Normandy invasion[quote]
The soldiers Patton slapped weren't "yellow bellies", they were combat veterans who had reached their limits. You should show more respect. And for a professional soldier and general officer to show such a poor example of discipline as Patton did betrayed a serious lack of professional judgement.
I think Eichelberger was at least as good a general as Patton and perhaps Krueger was too. Patch was also good and showed he was capable of defeating both the Japanese and the Germans. But they never made movies about Eichelberger, Krueger or Patch. Actually the best soldier "we" had if you count the Americans and Brits together, was probably Slim.
One can hardly think of a more expensive and less practical way to deliver a ton of TNT to a target (given that it's VERY large target) than a V2.
Last edited by Irishtom29; 12-05-2009 at 01:24 PM..
Good point on Bill Slim. Wasn't it Slim that Eisenhower threated Montgomery with when they had their 'Come to Jesus' meeting? Which actually was fairly similar to Bradley's 'Come to Jesus' meeting with Patton.
Slim was an excellent commander, I think clearly the best the Brits had.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny
Patton, on the other hand, was an ego-maniac who threw troops away without much thought. Read of the lives he discarded making a raid behind the lines at Hammelburg to rescue his son-in-law. 48 Hours to Hammelburg: Pattons' Secret Ghost by Charles Whiting
.
Speaking of Hollywood movies. I always thought The Hammelburg Raid would make a great movie.. Of course we win though.........
We must agree to disagree on Patton, He was what American's like in a combat leader. Yes, he chewed up men and equipment but he always wanted to advance, to take the offensive. America's military hero's have always been like that (sometimes with terrible results)
From Admiral Farragutt's "Damn the torrpedos, Full Speed Ahead
to George Armstrong Custer looking down upon the entire Souix Nation and yelling "Charge"
to George Armstrong Custer looking down upon the entire Souix Nation and yelling "Charge"
And Custer would'a whipped 'em too if Reno had acted like a true cavalryman and not dismounted and started shooting. But Americans made poor cavalry; too fond of shooting and not fond enough of point and edge. Polish hussars or British cuirassiers would'a gone through the Indian town like Billy be *******.
The Russians got $12 billion in lend lease, this also included 15 million pairs of boots, 350 locomotives, 1600 flat cars, the 300,000 trucks as I mentioned earlier, the planes, ect ect. Kind of hard to march in the snow without boots I would imagine.
Now guess what? The British recieved $31 billion in aid from lend lease, including 10% of their food. The exact numbers of how many of each plane, tank, gun, truck ect are harder to find. If Russia got 10 billion, and Britain got 31 Billion, does that not indicate with near certainty they would of lost without american involvement ? I did find some more links that provide more info about lend lease with Britain and some mustangs that RAF recieved.
I have to wonder how many more U boats there would of been to pound away on British shipping without them chasing American ships all over the world. U boat activity would be much more concentrated on English and Canadian naval efforts.
Also guess it wasn't very nice to call the slapped soldier a yellow belly, but there were alot of those types trying to duck out of their duty. However, the soldier in the movie (Patton) kinda looked like he needed a thump upside the head, IMHO.
Patton was a good commander (in most respects), but the sheer numbers of Russians and their excellent equipment would have been too much for the Western Allies to handle. I don't think for a moment that we could have 'rolled them up'. There were simply too many. They had quite an air force too, and anyway, the USA and Britain found out that the air force can't win a war by itself. The Germans went on fighting for well over a year after the RAF and USAAF had bombed thier cities to smithereens.
We would have had to fight the Russians to take Berlin. After what the Nazis did to their country, they were going to take it, period.
The Russians got $12 billion in lend lease, this also included 15 million pairs of boots, 350 locomotives, 1600 flat cars, the 300,000 trucks as I mentioned earlier, the planes, ect ect. Kind of hard to march in the snow without boots I would imagine.
Now guess what? The British recieved $31 billion in aid from lend lease, including 10% of their food. The exact numbers of how many of each plane, tank, gun, truck ect are harder to find. If Russia got 10 billion, and Britain got 31 Billion, does that not indicate with near certainty they would of lost without american involvement ? I did find some more links that provide more info about lend lease with Britain and some mustangs that RAF recieved.
I have to wonder how many more U boats there would of been to pound away on British shipping without them chasing American ships all over the world. U boat activity would be much more concentrated on English and Canadian naval efforts.
Also guess it wasn't very nice to call the slapped soldier a yellow belly, but there were alot of those types trying to duck out of their duty. However, the soldier in the movie (Patton) kinda looked like he needed a thump upside the head, IMHO.
Please, please! Stop getting your world war 2 history from movies. Movies reduce everybody to cartoon status. Shell shock or Post traumatic stress are very real conditions. The fact that an American General was so stupid as to not recognize that fact and reduced himself to a comic book villain by slapping a private speaks volumes about the character of the General.
Nobody is arguing the fact that the U.S. was the arsenal of democracy. What you don't seem to be willing to accept is that our allies - the Brits and the Russians - had essentially fought the Germans to a stalemate by the Spring of 1942, when american's began to show up in fighting units. There is no way the Germans were going to defeat either one of them.
Now, if you want to argue that there would have been no second front in Europe without the United States, you'd get no disagreement from me.
But you need to get over this fiction that without the U.S. entry into the war, the Germans would have won.
Speaking of Hollywood movies. I always thought The Hammelburg Raid would make a great movie.. Of course we win though.........
We must agree to disagree on Patton, He was what American's like in a combat leader. Yes, he chewed up men and equipment but he always wanted to advance, to take the offensive. America's military hero's have always been like that (sometimes with terrible results)
From Admiral Farragutt's "Damn the torrpedos, Full Speed Ahead
to George Armstrong Custer looking down upon the entire Souix Nation and yelling "Charge"
Yes, I guess we will have to disagree. I think there were generals that were just as good as Patton without his colossal ego and prima donna status. I don't have a lot of respect for Generals who spend his soldier's lives casually for self-aggrandizement.
Patton was a good commander (in most respects), but the sheer numbers of Russians and their excellent equipment would have been too much for the Western Allies to handle. I don't think for a moment that we could have 'rolled them up'. There were simply too many. They had quite an air force too, and anyway, the USA and Britain found out that the air force can't win a war by itself. The Germans went on fighting for well over a year after the RAF and USAAF had bombed thier cities to smithereens.
We would have had to fight the Russians to take Berlin. After what the Nazis did to their country, they were going to take it, period.
Not to mention the sheer weight of numbers and their very good weapons systems. By 1945 the front-line Soviet combat troops were pretty damned good, and they had already proven more than willing to sustain huge casualties in order to win.
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