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Two hitches US Navy,second of which was during the Vietnam conflict.No combat experience,did spend much time in the Tonkin Gulf.No,not my comment on U-571,other poster made it.An amusing link to U-571 is that one of my old racetrack buddies worked on that film as a craftsman.Have needled him for years about making that piece of junk.Have been to Punchbowl and the Arizona memorial.Have never been to Europe or Singapore,so no chance to pay homage to our fallen at those places.Am quite versed in World War II history,although not an expert and there are some gaps.Did not insinuate that you supported the Communists.My opinion is that you have exaggerated the accomplishments of the Red Army and underrated what Americans did.Others on this thread share my opinions.The maligning of a man regarded as a hero by most Americans,Patton,does not set well with myself and many others.And I still dont know who or what the hell Angus Podgorny is,perhaps some day will find out,just out of curiosity.
If you want to know who Angus Podgorny is, they have this wonderful invention now called 'Google'. You can type in Angus Podgorny and in about two seconds you'd learn. Or not. I can live with you not knowing.
I have in no way exaggerated the accomplishment of the Red Army. They destroyed the Wehrmacht. They killed German soldiers in very large numbers. You are the one that seems to think that was nothing and American trucks did the killing. They didn't. T-34's and Russian Artillery and Russian infantry did the killing.
I don't underestimate what America did during the Second World War. But I don't exaggerate it either. We were primarily responsible for defeating the Japanese. We were not primarily responsible for defeating the Germans, although we played an important role.
Patton is no hero to me, nor was he a hero to many people during the war. He was very much a flawed character, who succeeded because of the bravery of his troops and the nature of the opposition he was up against.
You state that others in this thread share your opinion. And others share mine. So what?
The Brits fought the Germans for six long years, a year alone. The Russians took incredible casualties in fighting the Germans and inflicted incredible casualties on them. Yet you and others simply want to put all of this down to America. It's that kind of arrogance that really pisses off the rest of the world.
Angus, I think your getting a little uptight, I acknowledged my error about U-571. Your the one that seemed surprised that the USSR recieved 300,000 trucks, maybe you don't know as much as you should about the role the Americans played in defeating Germany. I provided the links you requested to back up my statements, did you read them? Did you read John Welmsley's post about the battle of Kursk, and the link he provided? Im here to learn, but have not seen anything noteworthy to substantiate your position on how the USSR and Britain was going to win without $45 Billion worth of equipment, technology and advisors, and of course, the extra troops.
All I hear is "Oh the Russians are good at strategy and there were so many of them they couldn't help but win. Oh yeah, and their so tough they could fight just as well without boots, trucks, and mass production techniques provided by the Americans. Yeah, they were so tough you could put them on the moon without space suits and they would figure out how to turn dust into vodka. Could Washington have done what he did with his rag tag army without support and financing from France? Was there any kind of track record with the Russian Army that would indicate they fought well on nothing but sheer numbers in the years prior to WW2 ? Stalin had just finished purging all his top commanders before the start of the war, heck I almost think Tsar Nicholas could of done a better job with the situation than Stalin.
Hitler in his blundering and not listening to his generals such as Manstein, lost by a very thin margin as it was with american involvement. Britain was broke, they would of kept what resources they had to defend their island and would have very little to give the USSR. I refuse to believe the Germans would not have eventually built the navy they needed to invade the UK. The UK was able to pull back over 300K troops (Dunkirk) across the english channel with small craft in a matter of a few days. It was not a long distance to travel. Don't you think the Germans would of planned their own surprise invasion at some point ? The Germans would have had alot more volunteer troops to work with from the countries they occupied. Without much hope for liberation there would of been many more that wanted to assimilate into German culture.
Yes, I read your links. I also read the links about the Battle of Kursk. Kursk was won by Russian tanks and Russian artillery and Russian infantry. You cannot possible claim American credit for Kursk any more than you can claim credit for Stalingrad.
If you want to persist in this nonsense that Germany would have eventually built a surface navy and enough landing craft to invade Britain, there's not much I can do about that. How long do you think it would have taken to build a navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy and defeating them in the English Channel - always assuming they could have first defeated the RAF, which by early 1942 was clearly a match for the Luftwaffe? Ten years? Fifteen?
A little uptight? Perhaps. I'm just tired of this history of World War 2 which advances the fiction that the United States defeated Germany and our Allies were merely an afterthought. In fact, the Red Army defeated Germany. We helped. We helped a lot, but the Russians destroyed the cream of the German military machine in the Eastern front.
Your error about the U-571 farce was a prime example of this. Had you done any research about Ultra and the Enigma Machine, you would never have posted what you did.
Let me weigh in here: it would have been suicidal for Hitler to invade the UK. Even if the Nazis finally prevailed; at what cost? I am guessing that a million or more German troops would have died in Operation Sea Lion by itself.
And; unless Hitler exterminated all of the Brits............scores more Nazi occupation troops would have been killed.
Bottom line: good ol' Adolf bit off more than he could chew in WW II.
Exactly. The English Channel gave the Brits the defense they needed and bought them valuable time. Between Dunkirk and Pearl Harbor they got better and better. If you've ever been to England, you know that German tanks wouldn't have rolled over the plains, because there are no plains. It would have been a lot like Normandy was for the allies. Hedgerow to hedgerow and then street to street and house to house.
Always assuming they could ever get to England in the first place, of course.
Not likely considering that in real history, as opposed to your fantasies, over 43,000 men from the Irish Free State served in the British forces and at the end of 1944 there were 32,778 men from the Irish Free State in the British Army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mofford
Also wanted to add that books and links are both written by people, and an entire book or part of a book from any time period can also be a link. Someday people will not waste paper making books, they will be "printed" online
Any nitwit can write anything he wants on a website. Serious historians are peer reviewed and subject to criticism in the academic community. Serious books are also footnoted. Note the small storm John Keegan, a highly regarded historian, has stirred with the MANY inaccuracies in his latest book.
There is a difference between a website and a book published online, I know, I have a Kindle.
By the way, the source for the above statistics is "A Military History of Ireland" by Bartlett and Jeffery, Cambridge University Press.
64 years later. from the comfort of my good life home here on the coast, yeah for sure no sweat let the russians deal with it no threat to me at all.
but up close??? 25 million already killed and i am next, its a different story friend, retro decisions are much easier to make. bear in mind germany a tiny country-- it took that many dead and 2 giants to stop them--- leave it to chance, i dont think so.
otherwise i would be in a boxcar headed for disposal how bout you?
The Waffen SS would of played a much more prominent role without American involvement. Think about it, your living in an occupied country and their is very little hope that England or Russia is going to help you. Then the Germans offer you citizenship and a paycheck to support your family if you join and help defeat the allies. They promise you a share in the 1000 year reich and give you a chance to join all the fun pillaging countries you may not care that much about anyway. And you heard the news, the Americans don't care and won't help. I think Waffen SS numbers explode under these very different circumstances. Without the Americans, most of the war production in Germany never grinds to a halt from huge bombing raids as happened in real history....and they keep getting stronger.
Without the Americans, most of the war production in Germany never grinds to a halt from huge bombing raids as happened in real history....and they keep getting stronger.
War production in Germany didn't grind to a halt until very late in the war, when the transportation infrastructure went off the rails (so to speak), we began physically capturing the factories in question, and supplies of strategic metals began to fail both at the entry and transportation stages. The Germans were outstanding at fixing factory damage and setting up shop again. You might find it interesting to check the German armor and aircraft production figures throughout the war, for example.
Not that the strategic bombing campaign didn't harm Germany. I don't think anyone argues that. But its war production definitely didn't grind to a halt in 1944. In 1945, yes, when supplies from abroad dried up and couldn't be gotten to Germany even if they hadn't, when they were out of gas and when the rail network couldn't be kept in reliable shape much of the time. And above all, when the Allies started to capture the production facilities.
64 years later. from the comfort of my good life home here on the coast, yeah for sure no sweat let the russians deal with it no threat to me at all.
but up close??? 25 million already killed and i am next, its a different story friend, retro decisions are much easier to make. bear in mind germany a tiny country-- it took that many dead and 2 giants to stop them--- leave it to chance, i dont think so. otherwise i would be in a boxcar headed for disposal how bout you?
I doubt that: both the Arabs and the Japanese were Hitler's friends duirng WW II.
War production in Germany didn't grind to a halt until very late in the war, when the transportation infrastructure went off the rails (so to speak), we began physically capturing the factories in question, and supplies of strategic metals began to fail both at the entry and transportation stages. The Germans were outstanding at fixing factory damage and setting up shop again. You might find it interesting to check the German armor and aircraft production figures throughout the war, for example.
Not that the strategic bombing campaign didn't harm Germany. I don't think anyone argues that. But its war production definitely didn't grind to a halt in 1944. In 1945, yes, when supplies from abroad dried up and couldn't be gotten to Germany even if they hadn't, when they were out of gas and when the rail network couldn't be kept in reliable shape much of the time. And above all, when the Allies started to capture the production facilities.
The Allies finally figured out that taking down petroleum distillation plants as well as railroad switching yards were really putting the hurt of the Nazis. Hard to operate tanks and airplanes with no fuel.
I do feel that our aerial attacks were starting to bite down---------hard by 1944. The carnage in 1945 Germany was ghastly--------even in the areas that the USSA did not fight in. The Ruhr comes to mind.
Not likely considering that in real history, as opposed to your fantasies, over 43,000 men from the Irish Free State served in the British forces and at the end of 1944 there were 32,778 men from the Irish Free State in the British Army.
Well, lets try and get into the heads of the players on the western front. I think WW1 would be pretty fresh on their minds. I know many of you might be shocked to learn that I think the Kaiser Wilhelm would have over run the whole of France and won the fisrt world war, without American involvement. Germany may not have been able to invade the UK, but the outcome for the european continent would have been grim.
With this in mind, many in the occupied countries end up saying to themselves "Hey if the Yanks are not jumping in, were gonna get hosed. Remember the Germans were masters of propaganda and would of enticed many to work in German factories, join the Waffen SS, or as least not lift a finger to help the allied effort and remain passive.
Looking at the situation with Ireland, they hated England and would not have much of anything that would make Hitler want to invade Ireland, To the contrary, Ireland would be offered a deal. Germany would allow them to remain a free republic and give them large portions of Britain in return for them fighting on the German side. From the Irish perspective, knowing America was out of the picture, and they might suffer the horrendous bombing England was catching.....they might react differently. Granted that Hitler's promises do not mean a lot and they would be skeptical of the german offer....but do they still send 40,000 troops to fight for England ? I think not, and believe they would have remained very neutral if not joined the German cause to settle old scores with England.
What goes on in the minds of the Scandinavian countries ? What happens in North Africa ? Would Mexico, Central and South America be lending the Germans any assistance without American involvement ?
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