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[Mod cut: rude!]
"If one REALLY wants to prove segregation by race, the best way to do that is find a cheap, affordable community in Houston near the lower end of the income spectrum and then show us that it's mostly white. That would be a strong argument."
Care to take a stab at it?
I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that finding one apartment complex that fits your criteria will prove something about race? That seems more than a little absurd. Honestly, your statement that economics is unrelated to race is absurd too. Even Rand Paul wouldn't say something that absurd. Nevertheless, your mistake is a common Libertarian mistake. You are making a false equivalence between what should be and what is:
What should be is that economics has nothing to do with race.
What is, is that economics has long been intimately tied to race time out of mind.
While the conflation between what should be and what is has proven to be a simple conflation that is clearly disproven with rudimentary logic (see Plato's theory of higher forms, for instance), it is ultimately a politically nefarious position to hold. By confusing what should be with what is, you are actually laying the very groundwork for their continued separation. As long as you continue to believe that there is no problem with race in America, the problem will surely continue because you will be doing nothing to address it. Even though most people don't lie to themselves as openly as you do about this confusion, I will hand it to you that your logic is what governs the public imagination in a more general, detached sense as we make our ways through life. It is this very conflation that makes it possible for privileged people to feel ok about ourselves on a day to day basis, even as we recognize our own privilige--which we of course don't want to do. This happens in a whole host of contexts, but the intersection of race and economics is a major one. When this occurs in relation to race, we as white people are guarding what James Baldwin called "the jewel of [our] Naivete." I do it too.
I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that finding one apartment complex that fits your criteria will prove something about race? That seems more than a little absurd. Honestly, your statement that economics is unrelated to race is absurd too. Even Rand Paul wouldn't say something that absurd. Nevertheless, your mistake is a common Libertarian mistake. You are making a false equivalence between what should be and what is:
What should be is that economics has nothing to do with race.
What is, is that economics has long been intimately tied to race time out of mind.
While the conflation between what should be and what is has proven to be a simple conflation that is clearly disproven with rudimentary logic (see Plato's theory of higher forms, for instance), it is ultimately a politically nefarious position to hold. By confusing what should be with what is, you are actually laying the very groundwork for their continued separation. As long as you continue to believe that there is no problem with race in America, the problem will surely continue because you will be doing nothing to address it. Even though most people don't lie to themselves as openly as you do about this confusion, I will hand it to you that your logic is what governs the public imagination in a more general, detached sense as we make our ways through life. It is this very conflation that makes it possible for privileged people to feel ok about ourselves on a day to day basis, even as we recognize our own privilige--which we of course don't want to do. We are guarding what James Baldwin called "the jewel of [our] Naivete."
[Mod cut: rude!]
I asked you to show me a community in Houston, any community, that was affordable and had mostly lower income people that ARE predominantly white. It's not that hard really. Are the people in the 77079 zip code of Memorial "racist" because it's predominantly white or is it predominantly white because the cost of housing is over $250 a sq foot? If you go all over this city, you can see segregation of income. That is everywhere. Try going to the people's republic of San Francisco and you probably have one of the highest segregation in the country. Is frisco full of racists? I'm going to say, most certainly not. But it's why you simply can't walk into an area and look for black people and when you can't find any scream racism!!!!!
I don't know why you don't understand this. This is why Houston study after study shows that this city is one of the most diverse, least segregated, cities in the country. That does not mean NO segregation. It does not mean there is no racism here. It means we are doing pretty well all things considered.
I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that finding one apartment complex that fits your criteria will prove something about race? That seems more than a little absurd. Honestly, your statement that economics is unrelated to race is absurd too. Even Rand Paul wouldn't say something that absurd. Nevertheless, your mistake is a common Libertarian mistake. You are making a false equivalence between what should be and what is:
What should be is that economics has nothing to do with race.
What is, is that economics has long been intimately tied to race time out of mind.
While the conflation between what should be and what is has proven to be a simple conflation that is clearly disproven with rudimentary logic (see Plato's theory of higher forms, for instance), it is ultimately a politically nefarious position to hold. By confusing what should be with what is, you are actually laying the very groundwork for their continued separation. As long as you continue to believe that there is no problem with race in America, the problem will surely continue because you will be doing nothing to address it. Even though most people don't lie to themselves as openly as you do about this confusion, I will hand it to you that your logic is what governs the public imagination in a more general, detached sense as we make our ways through life. It is this very conflation that makes it possible for privileged people to feel ok about ourselves on a day to day basis, even as we recognize our own privilige--which we of course don't want to do. This happens in a whole host of contexts, but the intersection of race and economics is a major one. When this occurs in relation to race, we as white people are guarding what James Baldwin called "the jewel of [our] Naivete." I do it too.
haha, good answer!
But seriously, no one has yet to come up with a viable solution mainly because, as you pointed out, people can't agree on what the problem is.
Last edited by ToyYot; 04-27-2013 at 04:46 PM..
Reason: Clarification!
On a serious note... I'll put it as spoiler since it's off-topic
Spoiler
this proves what I believe, that most people want the same thing (good schools, safe neighborhoods, nice parks, etc)
Sadly, TV and news always put a HUGE emphasis on small things that will divide us and make us fight with each other .... while politicians run away with our money.
For example, g_y marriage. For one thing, whether or not they get married is not going to stop the things they do in their house.
I asked you to show me a community in Houston, any community, that was affordable and had mostly lower income people that ARE predominantly white. It's not that hard really. Are the people in the 77079 zip code of Memorial "racist" because it's predominantly white or is it predominantly white because the cost of housing is over $250 a sq foot? If you go all over this city, you can see segregation of income. That is everywhere. Try going to the people's republic of San Francisco and you probably have one of the highest segregation in the country. Is frisco full of racists? I'm going to say, most certainly not. But it's why you simply can't walk into an area and look for black people and when you can't find any scream racism!!!!!
I don't know why you don't understand this. This is why Houston study after study shows that this city is one of the most diverse, least segregated, cities in the country. That does not mean NO segregation. It does not mean there is no racism here. It means we are doing pretty well all things considered.
[Mod cut: rude!]
OK, I need not to get into these debates. I'm not going to change your mind. The quote I was referring to was your statement that "income disparity is colorless." This is not true. In fact, income disparity is closely related to race. Yes, most of the white people in River Oaks are rich, and yes most white people are not rich. However, there is a much higher percentage of rich white people in River Oaks than rich black people in River Oaks, relative to the overall demographic makeup of the city. Moreover, this disparity is true of almost every wealthy neighborhood in the country. I'll tell you what, you find me a wealthy zip code in this city (or even this country) where the percentage of wealthy blacks is equal to or greater than the percentage of African-Americans overall in the country, and I'll wave the white flag on this one. You'll win. Yee-ha. But you won't find it. I don't even know how you can carry on arguing this. "The jewel of his naivete," brother, "The jewel of his naivete." Just think about that phrase for a while. No one wants to admit privilege. It feels ugly--I don't blame you but it's there. Check out Louie CK's youtube video on being white. That's what this is about.
I'll tell you what, you find me a wealthy zip code in this city (or even this country) where the percentage of wealthy blacks is equal to or greater than the percentage of African-Americans overall in the country, and I'll wave the white flag on this one. You'll win. Yee-ha. But you won't find it.
It's population is over 800k so it's not some tiny podunk community. It's almost 70% black and about 18% white.
"The median income for a household in the county in 2008 was $71,696,[25] and the median income for a family was $81,908. The 2008 mean income for a family in the county was $94,360. As of 2000, males had a median income of $38,904 versus $35,718 for females. The 2008 per capita income for the county was $23,360. About 4.70% of families and 7.40% of the population were below the poverty line, including 9.2% of those under age 18 and 7.1% of those age 65 or over. Prince George's County is the 70th most affluent county in the United States by median income for families and the most affluent county in the United States with an African-American majority. Almost 38.8% of all households in Prince George's County, earned over $100,000 in 2008.[26] As of the 2010 census the reported racial and ethnic composition of the county was 14.92% Non-Hispanic whites, 63.52% Non-Hispanic blacks, 0.49% Native Americans, 4.07% Asians, 0.06% Pacific Islanders, 0.25% Non-Hispanics reporting some other race, 2.05% Non-Hispanics reporting more than one race and 14.94% Hispanic.[27]
Here is an interesting tidbit you can chew on for dessert:
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2009: 7.5%
(6.9% for White Non-Hispanic residents, 6.8% for Black residents, 11.3% for Hispanic or Latino residents, 15.7% for other race residents)
[LEFT]
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Prin...#ixzz2Rif6Wvfc
That's right boss, more whites living in poverty then blacks!
I could have also mentioned other wealthy black areas like Southfield, MI,Warrensville Heights,OH and Dekalb County Georgia. All three areas grew wealthier as the population grew blacker.
But back to Prince's George, median income in Prince George’s outpaced the national median from the 1970 census forward.
Average income in the county is almost double the national average for black families, according to the Census Bureau’s 2009 American Community Survey.
On a serious note... I'll put it as spoiler since it's off-topic
Spoiler
this proves what I believe, that most people want the same thing (good schools, safe neighborhoods, nice parks, etc)
Sadly, TV and news always put a HUGE emphasis on small things that will divide us and make us fight with each other .... while politicians run away with our money.
For example, g_y marriage. For one thing, whether or not they get married is not going to stop the things they do in their house.
Just some thoughts.
For the record, I have no issue with gay marriage. But frankly, my position on this is that NO married people of any sexual orientation should be given "special" rights. The US government should not be endorsing marriage and penalizing single people. Married people do not need "special" rights. They have enough economic advantages as it is. And to further this point, we should not be giving "homeowners" special rights either. It's a default tax on renters. See this is the problem, once we start handing out "special"rights to certain groups of people, then the whole thing becomes a circus as rights become a bargaining chip. The way to bring true equality to this country is not by creating more rights, but taking away unneeded ones. My definition of marriage equality is nobody gets any special benefits from the gov't, let churches marry who they want and allow all people to get a marriage license at city hall that is recognized in all states via the "full faith and credit clause" of the US Constitution.
Anyone see a correlation here with the cities at the top of the list? They are all getting hit hard economically. I would love to see the data on Nashville, Charlotte, Williston, ND, Denver, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, etc. Where there are jobs and prosperity, you are likely to find below avg segregation.
Tulsa is very heavily segregated. Almost all of the black population lives North of downtown.
[Mod cut: orphaned]
Basically. It's like eating stale popcorn.
In any case, being segregated does not = racist. There's plenty of income segregation as others have said. There are a lot of interesting statistics about race and money, etc. However, while I don't think anyone should be forced or need to live among others, it is an interesting goal; there's the potential to learn a lot from someone who is different from you. It is understandable though that people would like to be among people who are like them. That can entail race, politics, sexual orientation, wealth, education, etc. That's not really a racial or political tenet by any means.
Last edited by elnina; 04-27-2013 at 11:46 PM..
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