Areas in Houston that are similar to Southern Orange County, California (Plano: transplants, transfer)

[Mr. Clutch]

Lol what the hell does zoning (or lack thereof) have to do with crime?

The answer is the local culture as well as the lack of police. We've always been a high-crime area in my lifetime, law enforcement is lax, and people feel they can get away with crime. There are certain design elements of Texas cities that do make them prone to certain types of crime (such as the freeway feeder road systems facilitating quick escapes after robberies), but it doesn't have a thing to do with the fact that there's a random auto body shop on the corner.

It's a lack of will to enforce laws that goes back as long as I can remember.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

Lol what the hell does zoning (or lack thereof) have to do with crime?

The answer is the local culture as well as the lack of police. We've always been a high-crime area in my lifetime, law enforcement is lax, and people feel they can get away with crime. There are certain design elements of Texas cities that do make them prone to certain types of crime (such as the freeway feeder road systems facilitating quick escapes after robberies), but it doesn't have a thing to do with the fact that there's a random auto body shop on the corner.

It's a lack of will to enforce laws that goes back as long as I can remember.

Not just your lifetime but for a long time Houston has been this way.

But no zoning does play a part in crime. That's how Houston got huge apartment blocks built that eventually became basically the projects. Would this have happened if Houston had zoning which spread out the apartments? Someone will say that lower income folks need a place to live, but do all those lower income people in gritty SW Houston apartments work nearby? How many of them work 15-20+ minutes away? Could spreading out some of these apartments been beneficial? I think so. Houston has several of these high crime large apartment clusters, more than the average city. I don't see these kind of apartment setups in other places.

Another thing no zoning can do is bring in retail/commercial to an area that would typically be purely residential in other cities. Retail is always a crime hotbed (robberies, burglaries, etc.). Because retail is more mixed with residential in Houston (there are pros to this too) versus concentrated, it allows crime to travel more.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Not just your lifetime but for a long time Houston has been this way.

But no zoning does play a part in crime. That's how Houston got huge apartment blocks built that eventually became basically the projects. Would this have happened if Houston had zoning which spread out the apartments? Someone will say that lower income folks need a place to live, but do all those lower income people in gritty SW Houston apartments work nearby? How many of them work 15-20+ minutes away? Could spreading out some of these apartments been beneficial? I think so.

Houston has several of these high crime large apartment clusters, more than the average city. I don't see these kind of apartment setups in other places.

Many of those apartments were upscale when they were built. In the 80's, Gulfton was THE place to live for 20 something singles. Apartments where the coke and sex flowed freely. All those apartments in Greenspoint weren't developed as lower income housing, they were built for the people moving here from places like Michigan, because there were jobs here.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by WRM20

Many of those apartments were upscale when they were built. In the 80's, Gulfton was THE place to live for 20 something singles. Apartments where the coke and sex flowed freely. All those apartments in Greenspoint weren't developed as lower income housing, they were built for the people moving here from places like Michigan, because there were jobs here.

I'm well aware and my parents were one of those people who moved into those complexes around that time (it's how they met), but Houston has a history of these types of areas turning to crap. An overbuilding of apartments in a concentrated area. That's why I said they eventually became the projects because that's what they've resembled for most of their history now. The good ol days at these apartments didn't even last a decade.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

I'm well aware and my parents were one of those people who moved into those complexes around that time (it's how they met), but Houston has a history of these types of areas turning to crap. An overbuilding of apartments in a concentrated area. That's why I said they eventually became the projects because that's what they've resembled for most of their history now. The good ol days at these apartments didn't even last a decade.

Yeah, the mid-80's were hard on that part of town. I never lived in that area, but spent the 80's living in various places along Stella Link, before moving to Antoine/I-10 area.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Not just your lifetime but for a long time Houston has been this way.

But no zoning does play a part in crime. That's how Houston got huge apartment blocks built that eventually became basically the projects. Would this have happened if Houston had zoning which spread out the apartments? Someone will say that lower income folks need a place to live, but do all those lower income people in gritty SW Houston apartments work nearby? How many of them work 15-20+ minutes away? Could spreading out some of these apartments been beneficial? I think so. Houston has several of these high crime large apartment clusters, more than the average city. I don't see these kind of apartment setups in other places.

Another thing no zoning can do is bring in retail/commercial to an area that would typically be purely residential in other cities. Retail is always a crime hotbed (robberies, burglaries, etc.). Because retail is more mixed with residential in Houston (there are pros to this too) versus concentrated, it allows crime to travel more.

Hey, having affordable housing (whether apartments or other housing types like entry-level single family) scattered around with access to the jobs the occupants work in is a great idea. Amazingly, the Houston area frequently has that! Westchase being the top example - a total mix of housing types and prices plus all kinds of jobs. But also how North Katy / South Cypress offers affordable housing near Katy and Cypress jobs in retail or other moderate-wage businesses.

Oh wait...people here were complaining that places with entry-level single family like North Katy / South Cypress are too close to "nice" places like South Katy and Bridgeland / Towne Lake and this is a failure brought on by no zoning. Similar comments made about other parts of the region where the "nice" is "too close" to the "not nice." So, I am confused.

Regarding strict separation of retail from residential, which is done via zoning in many communities, that reduces walkability and creates more automobile traffic, not to mention usually concentrates that traffic such that congestion happens earlier than it would have. If you advocate that, you pretty much give up any credibility for complaining about traffic or lack of walkability.

Regarding the apartment oceans: (1) much of that was actually artificially incentivized in the 1970s-80s because of ridiculous tax code breaks - those ended in 1986 with tax reform (2) any concentration of jobs, especially higher-income jobs, will generate a lot of demand for apartments - and so that happened during those years with the oil boom (unsurprisingly, it also happened again during the 2011-2014 boom), which was during a period when urban core living was at a low ebb in popularity, so young affluent apartment dwellers were fine with living in the suburbs like Westwood, Brays Oaks, Gulfton etc. (all were considered suburbs at the time, which is kind of freaky if you think about it now). Preferences have changed, and a larger number of apartment dwellers are more willing to consider urban core living and value walkability, so we've seen more apartment density built in the center of town, much to the chagrin of inner city Houstonians who wanted the core to remain low-density suburban (and probably thus wanted zoning), but too bad, they are clearly being ridiculous.

[LocalPlanner]

Oh, and I forget to mention regarding the 1970s-80s apartment oceans: they were a victim of the hopefully once-in-a-lifetime regional economic collapse (as were lots of homes). It would literally take that level of calamity to get today's nicer apartments to suddenly swing to serving just lower income people.

[Htown2013]

While "no zoning" may increase crime, what also significantly increases crime in "good areas" and suburbs is that Houston keeps expanding with a very large unincorporated ETJ area with no services, no zoning, and far less ordinances than the actual city of Houston. Many of the "New good suburban" developments are built in unincorporated Houston ETJ without zoning, other than self adopted HOAs.

This is the only city this size where I have seen anything like this. Majority of cities have different layers of incorporated cities, townships, boroughs, villages, whatever with their own mayor, council, police force, and services focusing on the local community and community fabric. Where I'm from there are multiple layers of these between the large central city (where it can focus resources on itself) and the newer suburbs similar to the Houston MPCs. Several layers. In Houston the newer suburbs themselves are unincorporated ETJ with no services other than county or what it has to pay extra to privately fund. I have not seen this anywhere else in the United States.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by Htown2013

While "no zoning" may increase crime, what also significantly increases crime in "good areas" and suburbs is that Houston keeps expanding with a very large unincorporated ETJ area with no services, no zoning, and far less ordinances than the actual city of Houston. Many of the "New good suburban" developments are built in unincorporated Houston ETJ without zoning, other than self adopted HOAs.

This is the only city this size where I have seen anything like this. Majority of cities have different layers of incorporated cities, townships, boroughs, villages, whatever with their own mayor, council, police force, and services focusing on the local community and community fabric. Where I'm from there are multiple layers of these between the large central city (where it can focus resources on itself) and the newer suburbs similar to the Houston MPCs. Several layers. In Houston the newer suburbs themselves are unincorporated ETJ with no services other than county or what it has to pay extra to privately fund. I have not seen this anywhere else in the United States.

Houston has the ability to prevent incorporation or annexation within its ETJ, and has used that ever since the law was passed, although I am not sure why the Memorial Villages were allowed to incorporate.

One article(sorry about the paywall) https://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...ts-8264251.php

City Planning Department website on the topic https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/Annexation/

Local Government Code section https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/LG.42.htm

[usc619]

Originally Posted by Htown2013

While "no zoning" may increase crime, what also significantly increases crime in "good areas" and suburbs is that Houston keeps expanding with a very large unincorporated ETJ area with no services, no zoning, and far less ordinances than the actual city of Houston. Many of the "New good suburban" developments are built in unincorporated Houston ETJ without zoning, other than self adopted HOAs.

This is the only city this size where I have seen anything like this. Majority of cities have different layers of incorporated cities, townships, boroughs, villages, whatever with their own mayor, council, police force, and services focusing on the local community and community fabric. Where I'm from there are multiple layers of these between the large central city (where it can focus resources on itself) and the newer suburbs similar to the Houston MPCs. Several layers. In Houston the newer suburbs themselves are unincorporated ETJ with no services other than county or what it has to pay extra to privately fund. I have not seen this anywhere else in the United States.

This is the main reason I moved to Fulshear. It would be a cold day in hell before I’ll live in the city of Houston or unincorporated county again. Fulshear is a zoned city with reasonable ordnance and civil services.