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Old 05-03-2011, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
...There is no consensus on how to count these illegal alien invaders and I'll bet a dime to a dollar I can come up with just as many sources as you except mine will show the figure closer to 20 million in this country right now...
There is no better count for legal immigrants that what DHS is able to tally from USCIS petitions. Over a million legal immigrants a year are moving to places like immigrant communities too. Just a rate of 65% as "adjustment of status" cases amazed me, meaning that they were in the U.S. under non-immigrant status, and went to having a Residency Card.
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:51 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,711,508 times
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It would be absurd to use the DHS figures.

Supposedly the DHS can't find the illegals to deport them, how can it find them to count them?
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:56 AM
 
24,726 posts, read 26,794,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KickAssArmyChick View Post
My boyfriend and I were talking about this the other day and I am would like your opinion on this. Probably won't make much sense but here I go:

When the first set of immigrants came to this country, they helped build it. Most of that the United States is today was built by those people. They had the same dream: to have a better life and for the most part I would like to say they succeeded: they learned the language and made this country their home.

Why is the same not happening with the second set of immigrants? They supposedly have the same dream, they just want a better life for themselves? Don't they? Why do they just seem to take things away without putting anything into the system. Why do they feel entitled to everything this country has to offer?

Why the different mentality?

I am posting this on the illegal immigration forum because the flow of illegal aliens in this country seems to surpass the flow of legal ones.
First, I think your assertions are somewhat exaggerated, although there is some truth to them. To the extent they are true, I think the reason is pretty simple.....It's much easier to cross a land border than an ocean. Since the barrier to entry is lower when crossing a land border, it only makes sense that less smart, less ambitious, less motivated people are going to get through a land border vs an ocean.

It also doesn't help that there are government programs that didn't exist 100 years ago. 100 years ago, there was no welfare for anyone, so there was much more incentive to form self-help communities etc. Although there are some exceptions, most government subsidies make people more complacent and less willing to be self sufficient than they would be otherwise.

Last edited by mysticaltyger; 05-04-2011 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Tempe, Az
1,421 posts, read 1,238,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
But my G-G-Grand Uncle came for the gold rush in the Black Hills (his ticket specified his intended destination as "Deadwood, Dakota", from back in Germany). His family was rich enough to send him on the Fulda, a luxury liner of the time. And it had that "chain migration" in there too, writing back for his brother and sister to join him a few years after.

When you study ancestry and family stories like I do, you'll find a big tendency to glorify ancestors and events...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
By the rules of back then, most people came here LEGALLY. Things change and its time for the ILLEGALS to go home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Rules starting when? If they came "LEGALLY" "back then", it is not valid for a discussion on illegal immigration now. See my last post for the most current data.

I'm keeping this on-topic, and do have some further points...
By YOUR words, your uncle came here bout 150 years ago. The immigration rules were different then.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikCortez View Post
By YOUR words, your uncle came here bout 150 years ago. The immigration rules were different then.
That particular relative came in 1884 (I have a specific date from ship records, and a scan of his ticket, exactly 127 years ago), with no immigration rules in regards to where he was from (a small town called Dungelbeck, near Peine, Germany). The ship was very new, and very luxurious (I've seen pictures), with a transit time of about a week. He came to America, there is no context of either being legal or illegal.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:18 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
That particular relative came in 1884 (I have a specific date from ship records, and a scan of his ticket, exactly 127 years ago), with no immigration rules in regards to where he was from (a small town called Dungelbeck, near Peine, Germany). The ship was very new, and very luxurious (I've seen pictures), with a transit time of about a week. He came to America, there is no context of either being legal or illegal.
Just what is your point about the past? We do have immigration laws in place TODAY and that is all that matters.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It would be absurd to use the DHS figures.

Supposedly the DHS can't find the illegals to deport them, how can it find them to count them?
DHS reports on illegal immigration numbers by state, and has the most complete methods and sources to closely estimate the illegal immigration population. I'd like to hear how alternate numbers are determined. It can't be subjective based on appearances.

The last five years of data appears to show that at least 94% of the net gain of immigrants coming legally...
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:14 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
DHS reports on illegal immigration numbers by state, and has the most complete methods and sources to closely estimate the illegal immigration population. I'd like to hear how alternate numbers are determined. It can't be subjective based on appearances.

The last five years of data appears to show that at least 94% of the net gain of immigrants coming legally...
Do numbers really matter? Even if there are only 8 million (low end of estimates) in this country the fact is that they have no right to be here and should be deported according to our laws.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Do numbers really matter? Even if there are only 8 million (low end of estimates) in this country the fact is that they have no right to be here and should be deported according to our laws.
It's always been based on perceived numbers by those against immigration...

We've all heard (and giving rise to this topic) "Why can't they come LEGALLY, like my ancestors did?"...

They are, 94% is a very good ratio...

You got kind of quiet about an olive branch extended not to call past immigrants, at the time of no immigration laws for them, as either "legal" or "illegal"...

The same context that we don't have a history textbook that says the indigenous tribes of the 1600's hunted deer "legally"...

"Why can't we hunt deer LEGALLY, like the Indians did?"

We are, for the most part...

Purists would still say "But nowadays, the hunters use guns, not like the honorable treatment Indians gave to their prey, and they mount the deer heads on the wall."...

But we have to get into a common reference for defining hunters, before we can talk about poachers...

Define the law before determining what is illegal, and before you reference a "Rule of Law"...

BTW, current DHS estimates are 10.8 million illegal aliens nationwide...
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:26 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,149,569 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
It's always been based on perceived numbers by those against immigration...

We've all heard (and giving rise to this topic) "Why can't they come LEGALLY, like my ancestors did?"...

They are, 94% is a very good ratio...

You got kind of quiet about an olive branch extended not to call past immigrants, at the time of no immigration laws for them, as either "legal" or "illegal"...

The same context that we don't have a history textbook that says the indigenous tribes of the 1600's hunted deer "legally"...

"Why can't we hunt deer LEGALLY, like the Indians did?"

We are, for the most part...

Purists would still say "But nowadays, the hunters use guns, not like the honorable treatment Indians gave to their prey, and they mount the deer heads on the wall."...

But we have to get into a common reference for defining hunters, before we can talk about poachers...

Define the law before determining what is illegal, and before you reference a "Rule of Law"...

BTW, current DHS estimates are 10.8 million illegal aliens nationwide...
First off most Americans are not opposed to legal immigration (what is considerd to be legal immigration TODAY). Some want reductions in those numbers for various reasons.

Are you saying most Americans wouldn't oppose illegal immigration if the numbers were lower? Of course they still would! What difference does it make what the ratio is of legal immigration vs illegal immigration? Illegal immigration is still against the law and is reason for most loyal, law abding Americans to oppose it. Just because something was ok long ago doesn't make it ok today. Rules and laws change to fit modern day circumstances. Deal with it! If you need to have the rule of law explained to you then all I can say is
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