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I can't believe how dumb and racist people are on here and who never know the true facts. And it's really ridiculous how gullible people are who voted for this racist bigot of a president who has done absolutely nothing for this country. And as we all knew from the beginning, this 'wall' and all this other bs is a bunch of nothing. A complete embarrassment to the American people.
"American people" doesn't mean just African Americans. Or maybe you consider the repatriation of the manufacturing base inferior to free Obamaphones?
Sorry bro but you're fairied savior isn't coming back. We President Now
Rosa I appreciate your attempt to answer but you're arguing a straw man. I'm sure many people in here assumed that illegals weren't just going right up to the counter asking for a check. They assumed they're circumventing the law with either fraudulent papers or using their natural born kids. Do you also have data on just how difficult it is to forge those docs or are you just assuming it's difficult? If you already posted it, then I missed it and please post the link again.
And this conflating citizen crime with illegals potentially committing crimes is disingenuous. We deal with our own citizens committing crimes, we don't need to deal with the criminality of people who don't deserve to be here in the first place. Illegals could commit one percent of all fraud cases, so what? We don't have a right to be upset about that one percent of crime that we don't need? That's how it always is with apologists, it's always downplaying the criminality as though the actual amount of crime matters and not the fact that ANY crimes are being committed. They're here illegally, they have to work, they get phony SS#s and commit identity fraud. Many use their kids for benefits. I mean what more do you want, or do you and others want to continue to misdirect us with how many native Missourians abuse food stamps. Or how even getting upset at something like this is spurious because it only cost X percent of the budget?
Radiolibre,
Well, have you tried to forge an official birth certificate? Naturalization papers? No, I don't have data on how hard it is, but if it were EASY, wouldn't more illegals have these papers?
Regarding using "their kids for benefits" I understand what you are saying, but those children are U.S. citizens under currently U.S. law, so their parents applying for social service benefits for them is not illegal. (As I've said multiple times here, I do not condone illegal immigration).
A few posts ago I asked whether we should have a tiered system of citizenship, with different tiers receiving different benefits. What do you think of that idea?
My point about the U.S. citizens committing welfare fraud is to raise another item of discussion. If we're going to discuss what is wrong with our welfare system (which is ultimately a Federal program), then we need to look at all of the issues involved, not just one slice of it, in order to have an intelligent conversation.
By the way, if an illegal immigrant is found guilty of welfare fraud, they're subject to the same penalties as U.S. citizens. Are you suggesting that the penalties should be greater for non-citizens? If so, interesting idea.
Rosa I appreciate your attempt to answer but you're arguing a straw man. I'm sure many people in here assumed that illegals weren't just going right up to the counter asking for a check. They assumed they're circumventing the law with either fraudulent papers or using their natural born kids. Do you also have data on just how difficult it is to forge those docs or are you just assuming it's difficult? If you already posted it, then I missed it and please post the link again.
And this conflating citizen crime with illegals potentially committing crimes is disingenuous. We deal with our own citizens committing crimes, we don't need to deal with the criminality of people who don't deserve to be here in the first place. Illegals could commit one percent of all fraud cases, so what? We don't have a right to be upset about that one percent of crime that we don't need? That's how it always is with apologists, it's always downplaying the criminality as though the actual amount of crime matters and not the fact that ANY crimes are being committed. They're here illegally, they have to work, they get phony SS#s and commit identity fraud. Many use their kids for benefits. I mean what more do you want, or do you and others want to continue to misdirect us with how many native Missourians abuse food stamps. Or how even getting upset at something like this is spurious because it only cost X percent of the budget?
Radiolibre,
I'm sure you are right and it is possible -- for a price -- to forge a birth certificate or Naturalization paperwork. But, keep in mind that you'd need them for every single family member and all the names would have to be the same, if you wanted benefits for everyone in a family, so that could be a costly proposition.
Regarding using "their kids for benefits" I understand what you are saying, but those children are still U.S. citizens under current U.S. law, so their parents applying for social service benefits for them is not illegal. (As I've said multiple times here, I do not condone illegal immigration).
A few posts ago I asked whether we should have a tiered system of citizenship, with different tiers receiving different benefits. We could then say that certain classes of U.S. citizens (such as the children of non-US citizens) don't qualify for welfare, food stamps, college financial aid, etc. What do you think of that idea?
My point about the U.S. citizens committing welfare fraud is to raise another item of discussion. If we're going to discuss what is wrong with our welfare system (which is ultimately a Federal program), then we need to look at all of the issues involved, not just one slice of it, in order to have an intelligent conversation about it.
By the way, if an illegal immigrant is found guilty of welfare fraud, they're subject to the same penalties as U.S. citizens. Are you suggesting that the penalties should be greater for non-citizens? If so, interesting idea.
I appreciate the way you approach discussions too, radiolibre. As I learned last week in our discussions in another thread, when we listen to each other, we discover we have more similar viewpoints than differing ones. I just wish there was more of that type of discussion on City Data, instead of people making assumptions about each other.
Well, have you tried to forge an official birth certificate? Naturalization papers? No, I don't have data on how hard it is, but if it were EASY, wouldn't more illegals have these papers?
Regarding using "their kids for benefits" I understand what you are saying, but those children are U.S. citizens under currently U.S. law, so their parents applying for social service benefits for them is not illegal. (As I've said multiple times here, I do not condone illegal immigration).
A few posts ago I asked whether we should have a tiered system of citizenship, with different tiers receiving different benefits. What do you think of that idea?
My point about the U.S. citizens committing welfare fraud is to raise another item of discussion. If we're going to discuss what is wrong with our welfare system (which is ultimately a Federal program), then we need to look at all of the issues involved, not just one slice of it, in order to have an intelligent conversation.
By the way, if an illegal immigrant is found guilty of welfare fraud, they're subject to the same penalties as U.S. citizens. Are you suggesting that the penalties should be greater for non-citizens? If so, interesting idea.
Many issues here. The isn't that it's legal for the parents of legal children to apply for benefits, it's just the way they're getting around the fact that A.) they' shouldn't be here. B.) much less be getting any benefits, kids or not. That's the crux. That they shouldn't be here. That they broke the law by crossing. That it's subject to deportation. That they should be caught and deported and stopped from gaming the system.
On welfare fraud. The penalty should be greater for illegal aliens to keep others from doing it. That's my opinion.
On the forged papers, is there any data on how hard it is to forge? Is there any data on how many illegals use forged data to receive benefits? That would be great to find out because as of now we're speculating. Perhaps there is more fraud than we think. They are receiving a lot of money collectively. Is it all because of the kids?
I mean I am not trying to be combative but I just find these debates to be so frustrating because I expect someone in here to tell us about how illegals contribute a lot to SS with their identity fraud there by helping citizens out. Not kidding, I've heard that argument before.
I appreciate the way you approach discussions too, radiolibre. As I learned last week in our discussions in another thread, when we listen to each other, we discover we have more similar viewpoints than differing ones. I just wish there was more of that type of discussion on City Data, instead of people making assumptions about each other.
Many issues here. The isn't that it's legal for the parents of legal children to apply for benefits, it's just the way they're getting around the fact that A.) they' shouldn't be here. B.) much less be getting any benefits, kids or not. That's the crux. That they shouldn't be here. That they broke the law by crossing. That it's subject to deportation. That they should be caught and deported and stopped from gaming the system.
On welfare fraud. The penalty should be greater for illegal aliens to keep others from doing it. That's my opinion.
On the forged papers, is there any data on how hard it is to forge? Is there any data on how many illegals use forged data to receive benefits? That would be great to find out because as of now we're speculating. Perhaps there is more fraud than we think. They are receiving a lot of money collectively. Is it all because of the kids?
I mean I am not trying to be combative but I just find these debates to be so frustrating because I expect someone in here to tell us about how illegals contribute a lot to SS with their identity fraud there by helping citizens out. Not kidding, I've heard that argument before.
I understand. I agree with you about illegal immigration. I also think it is wrong, but having met and worked with many undocumented students AND the children of undocumented parents, I know that each case is different, and it is hard to make sweeping generalizations.
For instance, many people assume that all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. But, I've met undocumented families from Canada, Russia, Europe, China, Vietnam, Thailand, multiple South American countries in addition to families from Mexico. Again: each case is different. It's a really complex issue and the solution is not as simple as "build a wall" (we already have a wall along the border a few miles from my house, by the way).
Regarding undocumented kids and the children of undocumented parents, it's a really tough call. I used to think like you that all undocumented kids and all U.S. born kids of undocumented parents should be summarily treated as criminals. But, then I met actual, living, breathing undocumented kids and the US born kids of illegal parents. I will tell you that unless you have a very hard and cold heart, it changes your opinions about the issue when you have a 13 year old sitting across the table from you crying because their mother was just sent back to Mexico, or when you find out that a kid who IS a U.S. citizen hasn't had anything to eat in three days because their illegal parents from Viet Nam are too scared to apply for help for their child. These are NOT all bad kids; they are kids that, in a sense, have been victimized by their parents who brought them to the U.S.
Again, it does not make what their parents did right, nor does it make me support future people who come here illegally, but it does make you (or at least it did me) realize that this is a much more complicated human issue than just a black and white ship 'em all back to Mexico thing.
(And again, just to reiterate: I am not saying that I support illegal immigration or think it is right; I'm just saying that when you are staring it in the face in the form of a real kid, it changes your viewpoint somewhat).
But, getting back to welfare fraud. It's probably easier to get a fake birth certificate for an individual than it is for an entire family. The names on the birth certificates for a family would need to match (i.e., at least one of the names of all of the kids birth certificates would need to align with the names on the parents' birth certificates). So, I think that is going to get dicier to do then if you are just an individual using a fake birth certificate. I can't say how difficult it is to get fake birth certificates for an entire family because, quite frankly, I've never had to do so.
Obviously, it's not impossible to get fake birth certificates though. That's one of the ways identity theft happens. So, separate from the illegal immigrant issue, that is probably an area that should be tightened up.
I don't think you're being combative. We're just having a conversation. You haven't called me any names and you're good at actually reading and thinking about what I write. I wish more people here on CD listened to each other like that.
And, as I said, I think we agree on a lot of substantive things. Like that illegal immigrants should not be given some sort of "all clear" before people who have applied to come to the U.S. through legal channels.
Surprised you're a Trump supporter. From your other posts I was sure you were a Bernie Bro.
Some Bernie Bros or supporters have jumped on the Trump Train. Remember Bernie was anti-open borders too and said it hurt the working class until he was reeled in by the Dems and the SJWs.
I understand. I agree with you about illegal immigration. I also think it is wrong, but having met and worked with many undocumented students AND the children of undocumented parents, I know that each case is different, and it is hard to make sweeping generalizations.
For instance, many people assume that all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. But, I've met undocumented families from Canada, Russia, Europe, China, Vietnam, Thailand, multiple South American countries in addition to families from Mexico. Again: each case is different.
But, getting back to welfare fraud. It's probably easier to get a fake birth certificate for an individual than it is for an entire family. The names on the birth certificates for a family would need to match (i.e., at least one of the names of all of the kids birth certificates would need to align with the names on the parents' birth certificates). So, I think that is going to get dicier to do then if you are just an individual using a fake birth certificate.
Obviously, it's not impossible to get fake birth certificates though. That's one of the ways identity theft happens. So, separate from the illegal immigrant issue, that is probably an area that should be tightened up.
I don't think you're being combative. We're just having a conversation. You haven't called me any names yet.
And, as I said, I think we agree on a lot of substantive things. Like that illegal immigrants should not be given some sort of "all clear" before people who have applied to come to the U.S. through legal channels.
Of course and I am not trying to be heartless, I think that I would be more open to keep people already here here as long as they did not commit a violent crime. But I have no idea about the forged paperwork. I am only speculating but I do wonder just how so many receive assistance and it cannot all be just because of the kids.
Either way we agree more than we disagree. I just think some people take the cake when they start talking about how illegal immigration is a great boon to the economy.
Of course and I am not trying to be heartless, I think that I would be more open to keep people already here here as long as they did not commit a violent crime. But I have no idea about the forged paperwork. I am only speculating but I do wonder just how so many receive assistance and it cannot all be just because of the kids.
Either way we agree more than we disagree. I just think some people take the cake when they start talking about how illegal immigration is a great boon to the economy.
The illegal aliens being the backbone of the local economy argument is pathetic because they are saying that we can't function without having tons of lawbreakers here .
Illegals have no legal right to work here so if they are working here they are doing so illegally . Fake documents or evading taxes and working for cash .
Even the pro illegal alien crowd knows that neighborhoods with the highest number of illegals aren't nice neighborhoods but they'll never admit it .
They are crime ridden with trash and graffiti on the streets and lots of shady/crap businesses like pawn shops check cashing etc.
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