Arizona law violates 4th Amendment, I thought conservatives believed in the Constitution? (represent, fence)
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Just so everyone is clear on the Libertarian Party platform concerning immigration:
3.4 Free Trade and Migration
We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health or property.
There are those who will say that Libertarians are for totally open borders and everyone come and go as they please. Not so much. Just wanted to clear that up.
From their webpage
" We support the protections provided by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property."
The only thing I'm wishing for is a set of Vance & Hines Power Duals. And if you fear arrest for what you described, then I'll group you with the paranoid rightwingers who think Obama is taking our guns away.
Why did you not respond to the remainder of my post?
Because there is nothing to respond to the remainder of your post. As it is, I will have to be repetitive to keep the conversation going. And of course, I didn't see you address a situation I illustrated from my experience. Like I said, be careful what you ask for (and being careful is not the same as being paranoid).
Going back to paranoia, you might want to check back into the title of the thread. It seems a police state is acceptable when the purpose bodes well with personal rhetoric, doesn't it? I'm simply pointing out at possibilities that are questionable. If you don't question those, more power to you. Perhaps because you don't want to question anything that sits with your views on the subject.
There is certainly some room for police to take action that's not necessarily reasonable. I would think think they would have probable cause if they attempt to make a traffic stop and the person flees. If they arrive someplace to check out an employer or even as a customer and employees hide, then that sounds like probable cause. There will be some that abuse it just like there are some that abuse other laws. It will be the same ones. I think most police are good people, and I don't think most police have the time or the inclination to randomly pull over all the people with brown skin in the state of Arizona.
Its not about what you think. The law leaves a lot to interpretation and doesn't seem to leave provisions to protect the people from being harassed. That is my only concern.
Personally, if I were pulled over for a "probable" but invisible reason, I would definitely file a lawsuit. I hope others do too.
How else do they plan to enforce it? How have they been doing it?
Ever hear of traffic violations? How about if the person is found publicly intoxicated or involved in a crime? If the person doesn't have a valid state ID then they can ask for some other form of id.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Searching someone based on their ethnic features is not probably cause. Supporters of the bill will respond by saying that this law only applies to citizens. Correct, so if they search just one American citizen, they have violated the Constitution. Aren't the supporters of this law the same people who cry about their freedoms being taken away?
When they search just one American citizen and released them the moment that's established, they have fulfilled their obligation. I see no merit in your argument, or awareness of how law enforcement (any version) actually works. The pattern of logic you're following means any wrongful arrest in the history of governance ought to justify the abolishment of any arrests once a single person is exonerated with due process.
Ever hear of traffic violations? How about if the person is found publicly intoxicated or involved in a crime? If the person doesn't have a valid state ID then they can ask for some other form of id.
That are instances where I feel further check is warranted. But I hope you don't condone government officials pulling over someone simply because they had a "gut feel".
" We support the protections provided by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property."
Mine was from the website as well. This was in response to those who think Libertarianism is for totally open borders. I put it because I have herd people say that here. It was not in response to Fourth Amendment issues. The Bill of Rights protect American citizens, not illegal aliens.
Being "brown" myself (enrolled Comanche), I admit that this can issue can be problematic. I get concerned that natives in the state of Arizona, such as Navajos, Apaches, Hopis, Pimas, Papagos, etc will get targeted by individuals who cannot tell the difference between Native Americans and Mexican Nationals.
Concerning the Fourth Amendment, I will repeat something I said on page 1:
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, when originally written, applied to the Federal Government ONLY. As written, it does not apply to individuals, states, or foreign nations... it simply is a restriction upon the power of the federal government.
It was not until the 20th Century, when the Supreme Court ruled in a number of cases that some of the amendments found in the Bill of Rights (those in respect to the case being ruled upon) were to be applied to all citizens, therefore under the Supremacy Clause, state or local laws could not conflict with those amendments. Such amendments were incorporated under the 14th Amendment (the one whcih defined citizenry). It is also important to note that not all amendments and/or sections of amendments in the Bill of Rights have been incorporated in tot he 14th Amendment.
I don't know where the 4th Amendment stands in this right now.
The Bill of Rights protect American citizens, not illegal aliens.
This is a very commonly touted falsehood. The language of Bill of rights is rather clear and no where do the Bill of Rights exclude any persons from protection under the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th Amendment, nor do has any Supreme Court ruling revoked such protections.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Searching someone based on their ethnic features is not probably cause. Supporters of the bill will respond by saying that this law only applies to citizens. Correct, so if they search just one American citizen, they have violated the Constitution. Aren't the supporters of this law the same people who cry about their freedoms being taken away?
It would be unreasonable, if it were not for the millions and millions of illegal aliens in this country from Mexico and Central America, especially in the border states.
It would be unreasonable, if it were not for the vicious Central American gangs like MS13.
It would be unreasonable, if it were not for the tens of thousands of illegal aliens who march in our streets demanding that we change our immigration laws to accommodate them for being her illegally.
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