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If you study history as I do, you cannot help but feel the chill caused by the similarity of the fall of the great civilizations of the past to what is happening to the United States. No other empire serves as a better example than does Rome.
The end of the Western Roman empire came about around 476 AD. I think it benefits anyone reading this thread to read the rest of this VERY CAREFULLY. Tell me this doesn't sound FAMILIAR!
Reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire
All left Rome open to outside invaders
[adapted from History Alive material]
There were many reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. Each one intertwined with the next. Many even blame the introduction of Christianity for the decline. Christianity made many Roman citizens into pacifists, making it more difficult to defend against the barbarian attackers. Also money used to build churches could have been used to maintain the empire. Although some argue that Christianity may have provided some morals and values for a declining civilization and therefore may have actually prolonged the imperial era.
Decline in Morals and Values
Those morals and values that kept together the Roman legions and thus the empire could not be maintained towards the end of the empire. Crimes of violence made the streets of the larger cities unsafe. Even during PaxRomana there were 32,000 prostitutes in Rome. Emperors like Nero and Caligula became infamous for wasting money on lavish parties where guests ate and drank until they became ill. The most popular amusement was watching the gladiatorial combats in the Colosseum. These were attended by the poor, the rich, and frequently the emperor himself. As gladiators fought, vicious cries and curses were heard from the audience. One contest after another was staged in the course of a single day. Should the ground become too soaked with blood, it was covered over with a fresh layer of sand and the performance went on.
Public Health
There were many public health and environmental problems. Many of the wealthy had water brought to their homes through lead pipes. Previously the aqueducts had even purified the water but at the end lead pipes were thought to be preferable. The wealthy death rate was very high. The continuous interaction of people at the Colosseum, the blood and death probable spread disease. Those who lived on the streets in continuous contact allowed for an uninterrupted strain of disease much like the homeless in the poorer run shelters of today. Alcohol use increased as well adding to the incompetency of the general public.
Political Corruption
One of the most difficult problems was choosing a new emperor. Unlike Greece where transition may not have been smooth but was at least consistent, the Romans never created an effective system to determine how new emperors would be selected. The choice was always open to debate between the old emperor, the Senate, the Praetorian Guard (the emperor's's private army), and the army. Gradually, the Praetorian Guard gained complete authority to choose the new emperor, who rewarded the guard who then became more influential, perpetuating the cycle. Then in 186 A. D. the army strangled the new emperor, the practice began of selling the throne to the highest bidder. During the next 100 years, Rome had 37 different emperors - 25 of whom were removed from office by assassination. This contributed to the overall weaknesses of the empire.
Unemployment
During the latter years of the empire farming was done on large estates called latifundia that were owned by wealthy men who used slave labor. A farmer who had to pay workmen could not produce goods as cheaply. Many farmers could not compete with these low prices and lost or sold their farms. This not only undermined the citizen farmer who passed his values to his family, but also filled the cities with unemployed people. At one time, the emperor was importing grain to feed more than 100,000 people in Rome alone. These people were not only a burden but also had little to do but cause trouble and contribute to an ever increasing crime rate.
Inflation
The roman economy suffered from inflation (an increase in prices) beginning after the reign of Marcus Aurelius. Once the Romans stopped conquering new lands, the flow of gold into the Roman economy decreased. Yet much gold was being spent by the romans to pay for luxury items. This meant that there was less gold to use in coins. As the amount of gold used in coins decreased, the coins became less valuable. To make up for this loss in value, merchants raised the prices on the goods they sold. Many people stopped using coins and began to barter to get what they needed. Eventually, salaries had to be paid in food and clothing, and taxes were collected in fruits and vegetables.
Urban decay
Wealthy Romans lived in a domus, or house, with marble walls, floors with intricate colored tiles, and windows made of small panes of glass. Most Romans, however, were not rich, They lived in small smelly rooms in apartment houses with six or more stories called islands. Each island covered an entire block. At one time there were 44,000 apartment houses within the city walls of Rome. First-floor apartments were not occupied by the poor since these living quarters rented for about $00 a year. The more shaky wooden stairs a family had to climb, the cheaper the rent became. The upper apartments that the poor rented for $40 a year were hot, dirty, crowed, and dangerous. Anyone who could not pay the rent was forced to move out and live on the crime-infested streets. Because of this cities began to decay.
Inferior Technology
During the last 400 years of the empire, the scientific achievements of the Romans were limited almost entirely to engineering and the organization of public services. They built marvelous roads, bridges, and aqueducts. They established the first system of medicine for the benefit of the poor. But since the Romans relied so much on human and animal labor, they failed to invent many new machines or find new technology to produce goods more efficiently. They could not provide enough goods for their growing population. They were no longer conquering other civilizations and adapting their technology, they were actually losing territory they could not longer maintain with their legions.
Military Spending
Maintaining an army to defend the border of the Empire from barbarian attacks was a constant drain on the government. Military spending left few resources for other vital activities, such as providing public housing and maintaining quality roads and aqueducts. Frustrated Romans lost their desire to defend the Empire. The empire had to begin hiring soldiers recruited from the unemployed city mobs or worse from foreign counties. Such an army was not only unreliable, but very expensive. The emperors were forced to raise taxes frequently which in turn led again to increased inflation.
THE FINAL BLOWS
For years, the well-disciplined Roman army held the barbarians of Germany back. Then in the third century A. D. the Roman soldiers were pulled back from the Rhine-Danube frontier to fight civil war in Italy. This left the Roman border open to attack. Gradually Germanic hunters and herders from the north began to overtake Roman lands in Greece and Gaul (later France). Then in 476 A. D. the Germanic general Odacer or Odovacar overthrew the last of the Roman Emperors, Augustulus Romulus. From then on the western part of the Empire was ruled by Germanic chieftain. Roads and bridges were left in disrepair and fields left untilled. Pirates and bandits made travel unsafe. Cities could not be maintained without goods from the farms, trade and business began to disappear. And Rome was no more in the West.
i wonder about the psychology (and collective sociology) of people's removal from history, believing "things have ALways been good, so , they probably always will be, so don't rock the boat" and the complacency of that. seems people tend to prefer NOT TO KNOW and not to concern themselves with the issues when a.) they could be part of the problem and b.) it's more fun to watch reality TV than to think about such unpleasantries as climate change, corporate manipulations of individuals and societies, and parallels of imperialism.
i also wonder about some differences with the Roman Empire and previous empires:
* globalization, so much more immediate ramifications of economic upheaval
* transportation, so easier spread of disease, and quicker population shifts, for example
* nuclear weapons - just one or two could end it all...and how many are out there now?
* global warming - it IS happening. the US plays a very significant role in it. so what will other nations do as they become increasingly affected by global environmental change?
I am not a Historian but always intrested in learning. I can say this we need to Shut the Gates. I posted on another thread the same thing. We need to take care of This Country that is a gift. We have so much here. Let's preserve it, respect it and if others need help maybe we can help them in their own land. I'm not referring to Mexicans only it's Europeans too. Living in NJ I've always seen immigrants in small numbers but now it's towns. Clifton for one is overwhelming foreign. Poles, Arabs, Hispanics and others all speaking in their native languages in stores. Just go home.
I also would like to add how frightening it is to go to a rest area on the Garden State Parkway and walk in and not one person speaks English unless they have to do so. Also a man with a southern accent was in there when I was and in frustration he bellowed does anyone here speak English? What does that say for NJ?
Hitler is a boy scout compared to some of the people running amok today.
May want to lay off the hyperbole a tad. Hitler is still Hitler, even compared to the worst people today. It's enough to say that Hitler has company in the evil department. To say that there are those who make him look better, is, just ridiculous.
And it's unnecessary to use Hitler to make your point. Your point was fine without the distracting hyperbole.
As an aside, the decline in the Roman civilization, as well as our civilization, has comparisons that extend beyond those two. The overarching issue among most civilizations that decline is complacency, sloth, and gluttony.
One part of the solution that I think is overlooked is the health of the people/particularly the children, and the need to bring exercise back into the schools. Healthy bodies equal healthy minds; fat breeds laziness. It's time to think outside the box to encourage physical activity of everyone; make our neighborhoods more hostile to automotive transportation, stuff like that.
Our technological advances or our appetite for the advances that other countries have created have made us more content but lazier. While it can make us more productive, it can also create harm.
There are other parts of the solution, but I know most conservatives overlook the health/activity issue in deference to other talking points (morals, national defense/secure borders, "restrained government" -- although for most cons it's restrained only in certain areas).
Much food for thought here. I am really at a loss for words. Of course I already knew much of this, but it is chilling to see it put into words once again. Though this is an "immigration" thread, and I'm quite upset about many aspects of the current situation, I will admit that immigration is only a small outward sign of a much deeper societal meltdown. Western culture, the world's first experiment in mankind "crawling up out of the dark sewer" of human history some five centuries ago, is now on the ropes, fighting for its very life. The "west", the ONLY venue in the long, bloody, tragic and barbaric history of the human race that even recognized the "worth of the individual", and had even the remotest concept that ALL men were created equal and had "rights", is now seriously on the defensive. It is very likely that we will soon come to realize that this decline is irreversible.
The west, in what is perhaps the greatest irony of all time, has now come very close to becoming the victim of its own decency and openness. We have gone so far out on a limb in order to insure the acceptance of any and all cultures, at such an outlandish cost in common sense, burdened with such a crushing weight of our unique brand of guilt, that we have quite literally lost our rational ability to judge. Any culture, any aberration, and any lifestyle, no matter how dubious, is now awarded our full attention and respect. All this is made possible in the nightmarish, surreal world of "political correctness". It is absolutely impossible now to take a stand on any social issue with any sort of consensus. Our own culture of acceptance, and our "politically correct" vocabulary, have simply made it impossible to think in terms of "bad" or "good" in any scenario. What started out with good intentions (to make society a kinder place) has now engendered a dystopia where almost any conceivable sort of behavior will be met with some sort of sympathetic understanding. The once-noble concept of free speech has now been turned against those who promoted it; the land of the free is gradually filling up with those who despise it, both foreign and domestic, and our open society is seen as an open invitation to any conceivable behavior, regardless of the effects. This very freedom is then cited as the reason that "we can't do anything about it". We are the victims of our own good intentions, and we are prevented from coming to our own defense for fear of violating our "niceness".
The result is a society (ours) that has totally lost its ability to accomplish anything controversial. We can't fight a war, we can't secure a border, we can't even speak openly about our own domestic problems, or even hope to get a handle on crime, because we have finally internalized the notion that "no one is really bad, and no one is really good, either. No person, and no culture, and no lifestyle, is 'the best'; we're really all the same"--And even this post that I'm now writing will provoke charges of "bigotry" and "racism"- It's incredible, it's bizarre, and it is rapidly moving us along toward our demise.
Illegal Immigration is our fault. It's our country, and if we can't take charge of it, we have no one to blame but ourselves. The immigration situation is but a tiny symptom of the collapse of a society.
Do I predict the end of the United States? No, not at any time soon. We'll simply have to get used to the idea of living in an increasingly rancorous, angry, and contentious society. Life will be leaner, meaner, and harsher. We will undoubtedly lose our position as "World Leader", and will have no choice but to step aside for some non-Western nation, one not burdened by the niceties of the west.
When this does happen, we won't be judged kindly, I'm afraid. We'll simply be regarded as that broken remnant of a county that had once been the envy of the world, brought down not by invaders, but by its own society which, burdened by guilt, simply lost its confidence in itself and allowed itself to simply come apart at the seams. In fact, if we elicit any emotion at all from the world, it will probably be disgust. No tears will be shed for us, I'm afraid. We'll have enough of those on our own...
SHORT ANSWER: Yes, there are disturbing parallels with Rome...
Is it really that bad? I think not. Before the US, there were the French and the British who controlled much of the world at their peaks. They are no longer the powers that they once were. But they are still very strong and wealthy countries.
Is it really that bad? I think not. Before the US, there were the French and the British who controlled much of the world at their peaks. They are no longer the powers that they once were. But they are still very strong and wealthy countries.
That is true- -also Spain, at one time, was quite a world power. The difference, as I see it, is that when these countries suffered their declines, no one was seriously calling Western Culture into question. In other words, their decline was largely brought on by economic and military factors, rather than a generalized self-hatred.
Also I'd quibble with your references to modern-day Britain and France. The prosperity you mention there is in real jeopardy. All of us in the West, of course, are relatively prosperous- it will take decades to destroy what it took centuries to build up.
But I'd hardly point to Europe as a model of a place with a bright, happy long-term outlook. Both France and Britain have huge populations of immigrants who hold their host countries in very low regard. Remember all the destruction in France just last year? France and England are in a cultural collapse just like ours. They, like us, are being crushed under the weight of their own "colonial guilt", I suppose you'd call it. They are responding by "bending over backward" to accomodate all sort of diverse arrivals, even those who openly despise their benefactors. They've even willingly given up many of their civil liberties in a desperate attempt to "get along" with their angry newcomers. The average Englishman, I heard the other day, now has his "picture taken" 300 times per day. Somehow they can equate this with "freedom", I suppose. We don't see this clearly, simply because it's become part of normal life, and to date, it hasn't gotten quite to that point here in the US--yet.
With the present-day birth rate of "western" populations being as it is, there is little doubt that France will have a muslim majority within a very few generations. Can we be confident it will still hold on to its culture of freedom? Sure don't think I'd want to bet much money on that.
The present-day collapse I see is NOT an attack from without, or an organized attack from anywhere. It is an internal, moral collapse, and the "newcomers" are simply moving in to fill the void that we ourselves have allowed to take place. As my 2nd grade teacher used to tell us, "If you can't behave and control yourself, someone else will step in and do it for you". It's really no more complicated than that....
It's the greed of the few that might destroy us. Corporations wanted cheap labor, so the government gave in to their demands and created an immigration policy that let practically anyone come to this country. Most of the immigrants come from poor countries where overpopulation is the cause of poverty. Unfortunately, they bring with them that practice of over reproducing into their host countries. Many times they over produce to collect welfare, gain citizenship and political clout. No where is this more evident than in CA. The root of all this can be traced to the greedy corporations who have no loyalty to their own country and fellow citizens. It is very possible capitalism will have caused the downfall of modern civilization.
It's the greed of the few that might destroy us. Corporations wanted cheap labor, so the government gave in to their demands and created an immigration policy that let practically anyone come to this country. Most of the immigrants come from poor country where overpopulation is the course of poverty. Unfortunately, they bring with them that practice of over reproducing into their host countries. Many times they over produce to collect welfare, gain citizenship and political clout. No where is this more evidence than in CA. The root of all this can be traced to the greedy corporations who have no loyalty to their own country and fellow citizens. It is very possible capitalism will have caused the downfall of modern civilization.
Corporations certainly are greedy, and I don't blame them for that. It's a natural condition for corporations to want to turn as high of a profit as possible. But I do blame our government, they should be protecting this nation from greedy corporations. We are not a nation of corporations. We are a nation of people. Corporations are supposed to serve this nations citizens, not the other way around. But the problem is our politicians, the very people who are supposed to be protecting American citizens, have sold out to corporate America. It's the campaign finance contributions from corporate America/businesses that need to end. Unfortunately we have the fox guarding the hen house. So where I agree with you David that capitalism very well may cause the downfall of modern civilization, it's our own politicians who are responsible for letting, and in many ways encouraging it to happen.
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Haunting Words
