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Well, there is another bill that has been filed at the statehouse that calls for a .3% tax hike to fund a regional mass transit system for the metro area. The tax hikes would come from referendums at a county level. There is already some debate on this point alone, with at least one elected official saying that the tax hike should be locally based at the municipality level. Instead of Hamilton Co. passing or not passing the tax as a hole, you could have Fishers, Noblesville, and Carmel pass the tax, while Westfield officials might not vote for the tax. I think this is to allow some of the far out small towns and such a way to opt out of paying for a system they may not get as large of a benefit from. Also, I found it odd that the formed entity will include Delaware County. I recall in the past that some rep from Delaware County has pushed for some mass transit from Muncie to downtown Indy. I get the feeling they think this will somehow get people to live in the city/county, even though they work in downtown Indy. I think Delaware County is too far out to be considered part of the metro area. From what I can tell, Delaware County can't join unless both Marion Co. and Madison Co. vote yes.
I was wondering what everyone thinks will happen? I'm fairly certain that the tax grab will be referendum based. If it is decided upon by local elected officials, I believe you will see Carmel, Fishers, Noblesville, and Westfield vote yes. Smaller cities and towns like Cicero and Atlanta will likely vote no. I fully expect Marion County will pass it either way, though not sure Hamilton County will have enough votes on a county-wide scale. For those who live in Hamilton County, what are people up there saying about this plan. I can also see Johnson County, and maybe Hendricks County having some support. The two counties least likely to support the plan are Shelby and Hancock.
It also should be noted that the plan has changed yet again. The push now is for "Rapid Transit Lines." These lines could be either bus or rail based, but the original plan of constructing a rail line from Noblesville/Fishers to downtown isn't as set in stone as it was in the past. I think this is the way to go. I don't want to see construction on a very costly fixed rail line until we are 100% there would be usage similar to that of NYC. We don't have anything near NYC density, and I think a fixed rail line at this time is a complete waste of money. Here is a map of the current plan:
The problem with having muncipalities passing the tax is it leads to flight.
It needs to include the whole county. even though the people in Cicero/Arcadia and Atlanta wont like it.
last thing we need is to give people a reason to leave Carmel and Fishers.
Last edited by Broadrippleguy; 01-13-2013 at 07:06 AM..
The problem with having muncipalities passing the tax is it leads to flight.
It needs to include the whole county. even though the people in Cicero/Arcadia and Atlanta wont like it. last thing we need i to give people a reason to leave Carmel and Fishers.
yea, that will happen. If anything, it will attract people to Fishers since a rail line exists already. Carmel won't pass it ... their rail line is a path now. And now that Keystone is brilliant ...
Personally, I don't see anything passing for rail transit. Fishers keeps adding to I69. They aren't serious about rail at all. I wish we could get it together for highspeed rail on a regional level. People in Indy will never embrace rail.
They should stick to making bus transit more palatable.
It also should be noted that the plan has changed yet again. The push now is for "Rapid Transit Lines." These lines could be either bus or rail based, but the original plan of constructing a rail line from Noblesville/Fishers to downtown isn't as set in stone as it was in the past. I think this is the way to go. I don't want to see construction on a very costly fixed rail line until we are 100% there would be usage similar to that of NYC. We don't have anything near NYC density, and I think a fixed rail line at this time is a complete waste of money. Here is a map of the current plan:
First, the plan is not all about rapid transit, that map you linked includes some of the normal bus routes and how they are affected. Rapid transit is certainly highlighted, because that is going to be the biggest change.
The commuter buses that run between Fishers and downtown are full everyday. I don't know how much more proof we need that demand exists for something between Fishers and downtown. The demand is there, it is real, and we have tangible evidence that a rapid transit line between Fishers and downtown is wanted and would be used.
Same with the bus routes for other rapid transit on the map. Washington Street, 38th Street, the 19 bus to Castleton which winds through territory serviced by the rapid transit lines, these are all buses that see a lot of usage already. These rapid transit lines are replacing existing busy bus routes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy
The problem with having muncipalities passing the tax is it leads to flight.
It needs to include the whole county. even though the people in Cicero/Arcadia and Atlanta wont like it.
last thing we need is to give people a reason to leave Carmel and Fishers.
I really don't think a 0.3% tax is going to cause people in Carmel and Fishers to flee to places like Cicero on a large scale.
First, the plan is not all about rapid transit, that map you linked includes some of the normal bus routes and how they are affected. Rapid transit is certainly highlighted, because that is going to be the biggest change.
The commuter buses that run between Fishers and downtown are full everyday. I don't know how much more proof we need that demand exists for something between Fishers and downtown. The demand is there, it is real, and we have tangible evidence that a rapid transit line between Fishers and downtown is wanted and would be used.
Same with the bus routes for other rapid transit on the map. Washington Street, 38th Street, the 19 bus to Castleton which winds through territory serviced by the rapid transit lines, these are all buses that see a lot of usage already. These rapid transit lines are replacing existing busy bus routes.
I really don't think a 0.3% tax is going to cause people in Carmel and Fishers to flee to places like Cicero on a large scale.
Marion County would disagree with you. the difference is less than half a percent in taxes and yet 60000 people left Marion county for Hamilton county in the past 10 years.
Marion County would disagree with you. the difference is less than half a percent in taxes and yet 60000 people left Marion county for Hamilton county in the past 10 years.
The reasons those people left are complex and multi-faceted, and not dictated by taxes alone, or taxes primarily even, and don't have anything to do with what we are talking about now.
Well, there is another bill that has been filed at the statehouse that calls for a .3% tax hike to fund a regional mass transit system for the metro area. The tax hikes would come from referendums at a county level. There is already some debate on this point alone, with at least one elected official saying that the tax hike should be locally based at the municipality level. Instead of Hamilton Co. passing or not passing the tax as a hole, you could have Fishers, Noblesville, and Carmel pass the tax, while Westfield officials might not vote for the tax. I think this is to allow some of the far out small towns and such a way to opt out of paying for a system they may not get as large of a benefit from. Also, I found it odd that the formed entity will include Delaware County. I recall in the past that some rep from Delaware County has pushed for some mass transit from Muncie to downtown Indy. I get the feeling they think this will somehow get people to live in the city/county, even though they work in downtown Indy. I think Delaware County is too far out to be considered part of the metro area. From what I can tell, Delaware County can't join unless both Marion Co. and Madison Co. vote yes.
I was wondering what everyone thinks will happen? I'm fairly certain that the tax grab will be referendum based. If it is decided upon by local elected officials, I believe you will see Carmel, Fishers, Noblesville, and Westfield vote yes. Smaller cities and towns like Cicero and Atlanta will likely vote no. I fully expect Marion County will pass it either way, though not sure Hamilton County will have enough votes on a county-wide scale. For those who live in Hamilton County, what are people up there saying about this plan. I can also see Johnson County, and maybe Hendricks County having some support. The two counties least likely to support the plan are Shelby and Hancock.
It also should be noted that the plan has changed yet again. The push now is for "Rapid Transit Lines." These lines could be either bus or rail based, but the original plan of constructing a rail line from Noblesville/Fishers to downtown isn't as set in stone as it was in the past. I think this is the way to go. I don't want to see construction on a very costly fixed rail line until we are 100% there would be usage similar to that of NYC. We don't have anything near NYC density, and I think a fixed rail line at this time is a complete waste of money. Here is a map of the current plan:
So, what is everyone else thinking/hearing about the current plan?
My day job involves reading through state and federal regulations, so please pardon me if I pass on reading through the entire House bill. This past summer I changed jobs and began working downtown, and I started using the Indy Express Bus from Fishers as my primary commute method. Some of you may recall that my previous job took me to Chicago with great regularity, and I became very familiar there with CTA and Metra. Within the U.S., I have also used public transportation in D.C., Baltimore, NYC, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Boston, St. Louis and Milwaukee.
I believe strongly that public transportation must be improved in Indy for a multitude of reasons. A lot of folks talk about it being important in order to retain and attract the "creative class." Some see it as an economic development tool. I don't disagree with those points, but I tend to look at the more practical application of the need -- it is needed to get labor to jobs. We can talk all day about how taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize commutes (IndyStar comments are full of such sentiment), but the reality, as I see it, is we can either subsidize welfare checks or commutes. I'd rather pay a little extra so people can get to work. Cars are expensive to acquire, maintain and insure. For lower-wage workers, reliable and extensive transportation would be an attractive option that can encourage productivity. I also see it as a safety issue. We should not want everyone who can drive behind the wheel of a car, and we should want all cars on the road.
That said, the system has to be practical from financial and flexibility standpoint. To the extend BRT may be an alternative in place of rail from Noblesville to downtown, that may make more sense financially. It could free up money for more express bus routes to/from communities not currently in the Indy Connect plan. One of my co-workers who is also a bus rider from Fishers is opposed to the train because Union Station wouldn't be a convenient drop-off point for most downtown workers. It is a valid point. A lot of the folks on my bus are at Lilly and IUPUI, and busses circulate through downtown, offering convenient drop-off/pick-up for those folks. If a bus line isn't working, it can be changed. That sort of flexibility simply isn't available with rail. I see Indy developing a system closer to that I've seen in Milwaukee, which offers extensive bus service througout the city with express bus service to the suburbs at several park-and-ride stations close to interstate exchanges.
Will taxpayers support it? I have no idea. The political leadership in Hamilton County is very supportive, but I don't know about the voters. I do sense that many are beginning to see the need. There's only so much highway expansion that can occur. And make no mistake, roads are subsidized commute routes. Given that Indy is about to raise car rental and ticket taxes, and Kenley may force through a $20-50 increase to vehicle tag fees to fund road construction and maintenance, the timing of all of this may be poor.
The problem with having muncipalities passing the tax is it leads to flight.
It needs to include the whole county. even though the people in Cicero/Arcadia and Atlanta wont like it.
last thing we need is to give people a reason to leave Carmel and Fishers.
According to the pro-transit types, especially those pushing for fixed rail, what you say is false. They claim the bulk of the people want mass transit, and will want to live close to stations. I personally don't think it should include the entire county. Once you get so many miles from certain areas, people aren't necessarily tied to Indy/Marion County. I'm sure there are people who drive from the hinterlands, but I think a more fair system would be to not tax the entire population of small town Indiana when only a handful of citizens would actually have a reason to use the system. Instead, institute a scale based pay option, and those who don't live in areas that are paying will have to pay a lot more than those who are being taxed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by domergurl
Personally, I don't see anything passing for rail transit. Fishers keeps adding to I69. They aren't serious about rail at all. I wish we could get it together for highspeed rail on a regional level. People in Indy will never embrace rail.
Well, the leaders of Fishers (and Noblesville) want rail, but they also want additional construction as well. Anything that could bring even a small bit of taxes they want. If they get another two year road construction project, they just see that as more people in town to spend money on gas, food, etc.. They now want to re-design the 116th St. interchange. I think they should be told to wait for anything until after this transit plan gets up and running. Some are claiming this transit plan will do so much during rush hour in terms of getting people off the highway. If what they claim is true, there should be no need to re-design anything.
Eventually we will have high speed rail in this country. After jet fuel and gas is finally so finite that it is impossible to get, people will have no problem with doing nuclear power on a larger scale. Electric cars and trains will be the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic Toast
First, the plan is not all about rapid transit, that map you linked includes some of the normal bus routes and how they are affected. Rapid transit is certainly highlighted, because that is going to be the biggest change.
The commuter buses that run between Fishers and downtown are full everyday. I don't know how much more proof we need that demand exists for something between Fishers and downtown. The demand is there, it is real, and we have tangible evidence that a rapid transit line between Fishers and downtown is wanted and would be used.
Thanks for the information. I have wondered about those buses. What about the one(s) from Carmel? Does anyone know? I will say this doesn't really surprise me. I understand something is needed, I just don't think a huge, money pit rail line is the answer, especially not "light rail." If we are going to do rail, why not do something that is fast, similar to rail lines in Chicago and NYC. Of course that likely would cost even twice as much, if not more??
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb
This past summer I changed jobs and began working downtown, and I started using the Indy Express Bus from Fishers as my primary commute method.
Thanks for your personal account of the current system. I agree with you that the plan should be bus focused. We are likely moving to Hamilton County. Wife works there, so this may or may not benefit her. I will likely continue to work downtown, and I am definitely hoping I might be able to utilize this service. I will be doing all sorts of cost-benefit analysis, which also will include trying to assign a number to the flexibility of driving a vehicle (ie: Ability to stay over for work to work over-time...will such things be doable). If this passes, one thing I hope happens is there is a serious crack down on people caught driving vehicle who are unlicensed, suspended, or driving without insurance. One of the biggest excuses is our poor public transit service, and I do agree with them. The problem is, the service is bad, so they don't ride. They don't ride, so IndyGo misses out on money. Since IndyGo misses out on money from the thousands of suspended drivers, IndyGo doesn't have the money to expand service. If they get this up and going, there should be no excuse for these people. Last I heard, IMPD usually just writes a summons to those caught driving while suspended. I would like to see that changed to outright arrest when possible (ie: No kids to deal with). Make it known that if you don't have a license, you now have an expanded bus system and you need to take advantage and get your license situation taken care of before you drive.
If this passes, one thing I hope happens is there is a serious crack down on people caught driving vehicle who are unlicensed, suspended, or driving without insurance. One of the biggest excuses is our poor public transit service, and I do agree with them. The problem is, the service is bad, so they don't ride. They don't ride, so IndyGo misses out on money. Since IndyGo misses out on money from the thousands of suspended drivers, IndyGo doesn't have the money to expand service. If they get this up and going, there should be no excuse for these people. Last I heard, IMPD usually just writes a summons to those caught driving while suspended. I would like to see that changed to outright arrest when possible (ie: No kids to deal with). Make it known that if you don't have a license, you now have an expanded bus system and you need to take advantage and get your license situation taken care of before you drive.
This is a huge reason that we need better transit. Another one is to cut down on drunk driving. I have way too many people that I know who've driven tipsy (drunk) because there were no buses running and the taxi's are way too expensive. One thing that's always seemed insane to me is that the buses to Broad Ripple don't even run late.
This is a huge reason that we need better transit. Another one is to cut down on drunk driving. I have way too many people that I know who've driven tipsy (drunk) because there were no buses running and the taxi's are way too expensive. One thing that's always seemed insane to me is that the buses to Broad Ripple don't even run late.
Anyone who drives drunk gets what they deserve. If they have the money to spend on booze at a commercial establishment, they have the money for a cab ride. At least with those who are suspended, many are truly poor (not all, but a lot are under-educated and un or under employed). The last thing I would support is taxing everyone so ethanol addicts don't have to pay for cab rides home....or even move to a more costly area to rent so they can walk to the bars and clubs. However, you are right that at least this is a benefit. I guess we can all look forward to videos of bus fights and drunken brawls if the system gets up and running. I wish we could get an idea of the schedule of the proposed routes, but I'm guessing that is something that would be tweeked many times only after the system was up and running.
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If anything, it will attract people to Fishers since a rail line exists already. Carmel won't pass it ... their rail line is a path now. And now that Keystone is brilliant ... 
