Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics > Investing
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-02-2017, 07:50 AM
 
7,269 posts, read 4,213,236 times
Reputation: 5466

Advertisements

A friend of mine is sitting on 500k in cash in an IRA and needs to invest it for retirement income. They want to get a minimum of 5% risk free return PLUS have the flexibility to cash out of an investment if they feel the market is turning.

What might be some strategies for him to achieve a 5% risk free return ? Or is that even possible. He is 64.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-02-2017, 07:52 AM
 
26,191 posts, read 21,587,222 times
Reputation: 22772
There is no 5% return risk free
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 08:04 AM
 
6,769 posts, read 5,488,755 times
Reputation: 17649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations View Post
There is no 5% return risk free
Ditto.

Closest thing is CDs or regular savings/money market accounts insured by the FDIC or NCUA, and they won't pay anywhere near 5%.

Best online bank for savings/money market is 1.25% for minimum deposit of $10k with Purepoint Financial, the next best is 1.15% @ https://www.mybankingdirect.com/Products/MoneyMarket with $2500 to open.

CDs pay more! Capital One 360 CD pays 2.30% for 5 yr CD, no minimum deposit..

He's 64, but does he really have to be an all-or-nothing investor? can he put half {at least!} in CDs and savings/money market online accounts for more stability? If I didn't want to risk losing my money, I certainly would not go into the market, HOPING for a "guaranteed" 5% "risk free".

Tell your friend to check bankrate.com, and check it out.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 08:12 AM
 
7,269 posts, read 4,213,236 times
Reputation: 5466
Tks.

It has been suggested to him that he invest in dividend stocks earning a 5% plus dividend (reits, business dev. companies, etc), and buy options which will go up in value in a corresponding amount if the stock price decreases. That way he gets any upside in stock value if it goes up, and is semi-protected if it goes down. This is not risk-free but limits downside according to a financial planner who he has spoken with.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 08:49 AM
 
106,671 posts, read 108,833,673 times
Reputation: 80164
at one time when rates were higher it was easy to create your own index linked cd"s .

you would use the interest amount you were guaranteed , to buy stock options . that way the worst you could do is no interest but yet you were linked to the markets so you could get some upside participation .. nothing great because your gains are capped or your participation rate is capped but it did act like a cd on steroids when markets went up and principal was guaranteed if it went down .

i can post the how to , but with rates this low it just is not going to work today .

Last edited by mathjak107; 04-02-2017 at 09:09 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 09:15 AM
 
8,005 posts, read 7,221,727 times
Reputation: 18170
Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
Tks.

It has been suggested to him that he invest in dividend stocks earning a 5% plus dividend (reits, business dev. companies, etc), and buy options which will go up in value in a corresponding amount if the stock price decreases. That way he gets any upside in stock value if it goes up, and is semi-protected if it goes down. This is not risk-free but limits downside according to a financial planner who he has spoken with.
That is about as far from "risk-free" as he can get (reits and options especially). I don't see this ending well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 09:20 AM
 
106,671 posts, read 108,833,673 times
Reputation: 80164
a fellow poster on another forum wrote up a very nice summary of how to create your own equity indexed annuity contract using cd's and options .. you do need higher cd rates to do this but it gives you an idea how these risk free deals are structured . .



What is an EIA?

An EIA is an insurance contract that theoretically offers the buyer the opportunity to participate (to some extent) in equity market performance while guaranteeing a minimum payout at the end of the policy guarantee period. The extent to which the buyer participates in equity market performance typically varies year to year as does the minimum guaranteed crediting rate (AKA interest rate paid on the policy). This has proven to be a tantalizing pitch for many conservative investors. The problems with these policies are that you have little control over how much you participate in the equity market; the policies typically have high early surrender fees and very lengthy surrender periods (10+ years is not uncommon); the internal expenses of these policies are quite high; you are exposed to insolvency of the issuer; the participation is typically limited to price changes in an equity index, with no compensation for dividends on the index; the participation in the index is capped at a predetermined level so that really big gains are truncated within the annuity structure; and the tax treatment of eventual distributions may be less than optimal.

How you can “roll your own” EIA, part 1:

By far, the simplest way to set up an EIA is to do it in an uncapped version. The simplest uncapped replication portfolio consists of a 1 year fixed income investment (such as a CD) and a call option on whatever equity index ETF you want exposure to. So let us assume you can buy a 1 year CD that yields (APY) 4%, you want exposure to the S&P 500, you have $100,000 to invest, and you want a minimum yield of 1%. To replicate an EIA, you would buy the following:

CD: You want $101k in a year, so you invest $101,000/1.04 = $97,115 in a 1 year 4% yield CD. In a year, the CD matures and you get $101,000, which is your desired minimum payout.

Options: Your CD purchase leaves you with $100,000 - $97,115 = $2,885. You take this amount and buy at the money 1 year call options on the S&P 500 index ETF (ETF symbol SPY). At the money means that the option exercise price is about equal to whatever the ETF sells for today. So with SPY trading at $137.93 as I write this in April 2008, we wish to buy April 2009 calls with a strike of $138. Such a thing doesn’t exist, so we will settle for the closest month we can get, which is March 2009. March 2009 calls (Symbol SFBCH) sell for $12 each and must be bought in contracts on 100 shares each, so you want to buy $2885/$1200 = 2.4 contracts, but must buy 2 contracts for $2400.

So you end up with a CD that will pay $101,000 in a year, $485 in cash, and options on 200 shares of SPY struck at 138. The options cover a notional amount of $138 X 200 = $27,600, so your “participation rate” in the index is 27,600/100,000 = 27.6%, meaning that you catch 27.6% of the appreciation of the S&P 500 through next March while bearing none of the downside. When the options are about to mature, you can sell them for cash, assuming the market has gone up and they are worth anything. Otherwise, you collect your $101,000 from the CD, have your $485 plus whatever interest it generated, and decide if you want to play this game again for another year.


Rolling your own, part 2:

Instead of having a small, uncapped participation in the index, you could have a larger participation but cap it at a given level. This is essentially what is done inside the EIA contract sold by most insurers. To replicate the EIA, you would buy the same CD as in the above example. However, the options portion would include:

1) Buy the at the money options on the index as in the above example
2) Sell out of the money options for the same expiration date and underlying ETF.

An example will be helpful:

Lets assume that you would be willing to cap your upside in return for a higher participation rate. That means you want to buy call options at the money ($138 strike) and sell call options at a strike that is about 10% higher ($152 strike). The $152 strike options currently trade for about $5.50 a share. So we buy:

4 contracts of the at the money options (SFBCH) for 400X12 = $4800

And we sell:

4 contracts of the 10% higher strike $152 (symbol SYHCV) and receive cash of $400X5.50 = $2,200.

Total out of pocket for the options is $4,800 - $2,200 = $2,600.

So you end up with a portfolio that consists of a CD that will pay you $101,000 in a year, $285 in leftover cash, and a package of options that gives you up to 10% of the upside on 400 X $138 = $55,200 worth of the S&P 500 index. Note that by capping your potential upside you have increased your participation rate to $55.2% of your $100,000, or double the uncapped version.


About taxes:

If this is done in a taxable account, the CD interest will be taxable and so will the gains or losses on the options. In this case, you would want to set up the portfolio for at least 1 year and 1 day to qualify for long term cap gains on the options. So instead of buying a 1 year CD, perhaps you would buy an 18 month CD and options that expired in 18 months. Inside an IRA or other tax sheltered account this would be of no concern, but your broker may not allow you to set up the capped EIA replication inside an IRA.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
31,340 posts, read 14,265,634 times
Reputation: 27861
Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
A friend of mine is sitting on 500k in cash in an IRA and needs to invest it for retirement income. They want to get a minimum of 5% risk free return PLUS have the flexibility to cash out of an investment if they feel the market is turning.

What might be some strategies for him to achieve a 5% risk free return ? Or is that even possible. He is 64.

There is no such thing as a risk free return. They don't exist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
31,340 posts, read 14,265,634 times
Reputation: 27861
Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
Tks.

It has been suggested to him that he invest in dividend stocks earning a 5% plus dividend (reits, business dev. companies, etc), and buy options which will go up in value in a corresponding amount if the stock price decreases. That way he gets any upside in stock value if it goes up, and is semi-protected if it goes down. This is not risk-free but limits downside according to a financial planner who he has spoken with.
Not a terrible strategy. Most put options will expire worthless, but as you say, buying some will offer downside protection. I was in HDGE for a while, I'm out now, but you may want to check it out, it will accomplish the same basic thing. Don't go too crazy with puts, however, because you are fighting the long time trend of the market. I did it for a while and simply gave up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2017, 11:15 AM
 
2,674 posts, read 2,627,718 times
Reputation: 5260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
a fellow poster on another forum wrote up a very nice summary of how to create your own equity indexed annuity contract using cd's and options .. you do need higher cd rates to do this but it gives you an idea how these risk free deals are structured . .



What is an EIA?

An EIA is an insurance contract that theoretically offers the buyer the opportunity to participate (to some extent) in equity market performance while guaranteeing a minimum payout at the end of the policy guarantee period. The extent to which the buyer participates in equity market performance typically varies year to year as does the minimum guaranteed crediting rate (AKA interest rate paid on the policy). This has proven to be a tantalizing pitch for many conservative investors. The problems with these policies are that you have little control over how much you participate in the equity market; the policies typically have high early surrender fees and very lengthy surrender periods (10+ years is not uncommon); the internal expenses of these policies are quite high; you are exposed to insolvency of the issuer; the participation is typically limited to price changes in an equity index, with no compensation for dividends on the index; the participation in the index is capped at a predetermined level so that really big gains are truncated within the annuity structure; and the tax treatment of eventual distributions may be less than optimal.

How you can “roll your own” EIA, part 1:

By far, the simplest way to set up an EIA is to do it in an uncapped version. The simplest uncapped replication portfolio consists of a 1 year fixed income investment (such as a CD) and a call option on whatever equity index ETF you want exposure to. So let us assume you can buy a 1 year CD that yields (APY) 4%, you want exposure to the S&P 500, you have $100,000 to invest, and you want a minimum yield of 1%. To replicate an EIA, you would buy the following:

CD: You want $101k in a year, so you invest $101,000/1.04 = $97,115 in a 1 year 4% yield CD. In a year, the CD matures and you get $101,000, which is your desired minimum payout.

Options: Your CD purchase leaves you with $100,000 - $97,115 = $2,885. You take this amount and buy at the money 1 year call options on the S&P 500 index ETF (ETF symbol SPY). At the money means that the option exercise price is about equal to whatever the ETF sells for today. So with SPY trading at $137.93 as I write this in April 2008, we wish to buy April 2009 calls with a strike of $138. Such a thing doesn’t exist, so we will settle for the closest month we can get, which is March 2009. March 2009 calls (Symbol SFBCH) sell for $12 each and must be bought in contracts on 100 shares each, so you want to buy $2885/$1200 = 2.4 contracts, but must buy 2 contracts for $2400.

So you end up with a CD that will pay $101,000 in a year, $485 in cash, and options on 200 shares of SPY struck at 138. The options cover a notional amount of $138 X 200 = $27,600, so your “participation rate” in the index is 27,600/100,000 = 27.6%, meaning that you catch 27.6% of the appreciation of the S&P 500 through next March while bearing none of the downside. When the options are about to mature, you can sell them for cash, assuming the market has gone up and they are worth anything. Otherwise, you collect your $101,000 from the CD, have your $485 plus whatever interest it generated, and decide if you want to play this game again for another year.


Rolling your own, part 2:

Instead of having a small, uncapped participation in the index, you could have a larger participation but cap it at a given level. This is essentially what is done inside the EIA contract sold by most insurers. To replicate the EIA, you would buy the same CD as in the above example. However, the options portion would include:

1) Buy the at the money options on the index as in the above example
2) Sell out of the money options for the same expiration date and underlying ETF.

An example will be helpful:

Lets assume that you would be willing to cap your upside in return for a higher participation rate. That means you want to buy call options at the money ($138 strike) and sell call options at a strike that is about 10% higher ($152 strike). The $152 strike options currently trade for about $5.50 a share. So we buy:

4 contracts of the at the money options (SFBCH) for 400X12 = $4800

And we sell:

4 contracts of the 10% higher strike $152 (symbol SYHCV) and receive cash of $400X5.50 = $2,200.

Total out of pocket for the options is $4,800 - $2,200 = $2,600.

So you end up with a portfolio that consists of a CD that will pay you $101,000 in a year, $285 in leftover cash, and a package of options that gives you up to 10% of the upside on 400 X $138 = $55,200 worth of the S&P 500 index. Note that by capping your potential upside you have increased your participation rate to $55.2% of your $100,000, or double the uncapped version.


About taxes:

If this is done in a taxable account, the CD interest will be taxable and so will the gains or losses on the options. In this case, you would want to set up the portfolio for at least 1 year and 1 day to qualify for long term cap gains on the options. So instead of buying a 1 year CD, perhaps you would buy an 18 month CD and options that expired in 18 months. Inside an IRA or other tax sheltered account this would be of no concern, but your broker may not allow you to set up the capped EIA replication inside an IRA.
A couple of possible tweaks to this strategy:

- instead of 1 year CD, 2 year CD
- instead of rolling the entire amount over once per year, roll 1/8 over every quarter
- instead of 1 year ATM calls, 2 year ATM calls (SPY has two year quarterly options)

It spreads out the risk of getting in at a top, or out at a bottom.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics > Investing

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top