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I do not consider Ishaq to be reliable. I am not alone about that. No where has anything written in his book been verified. the original may have been. But what we have is not his original.
The organization I founded ICCND (Islamic Center of Central North Dakota) and IRFI do not always agree. It is essential all Muslims always verify all things and never trust any person alone. We have no earthly authority over us. The words of all Muslims carry equal weight, they all have to be verified by the reader or listener.
There are no standarized teachings or methods of teaching as we have no ordained clergy nor any earthly central leadership. Ultimatly each Muslims carries the full responsibility of his actions. those of us who teach or express opinion carry with it the knowledge we will suffer if our words lead even one person astray.
I should have mentioned above, I agree the Hijab is not mentioned in the Qur'an. However it is mentioned the hair must be covered. For many women the Head Scarf (Hijab) is the most comfortable way to do so.
Some typical hijabs are even being worn by non-Muslim women.
I personally know some of the people at al-Haanah, they have many non-Muslim Customers:
We have gotten a bit off topic:
I don't care if a woman chooses to wear a scarf. It is when thay are forced to wear one that I have an issue.
Now the face veil is a different story. A person is a person because of their face- that is how we know who we are speaking to. As infant we look to faces, are drawn to them, it is identity.
Face veils should not be worn/even outlawed? except when worn to protect the face from dust, cold, the elements of nature.
Bringing the discussion back on topic- The violence of the religous police whipping and arresting women for not wearing a veil correctly - asinine!!
You said - "We know she started her menses as she wrote she did in the Ahadith. To be honest many Muslims including myself doubt she was 9 years old and she was being metaphorical or symbolic. Young age is also a compliment of purity. Even today it is common for Arabs to say things like my wife is 2 years old. also the Arabic numbers have word significance the number nine (T'nash) translates as "You Prosper".
However, when read it is always read in the literal sense it is up to the individual to verify any commentary or interpretations.
There is very strong evidence she was older than 9 when they were married."
Can Islam be reformed in this area? Who will lead it? Think of all the young girls you would be saving. Allowing them a childhood. Stop the Quran and Mohammad sanctioned violence against children!
We will have to agree to disagree on Ishaq, Bukhari has actually verified stories from Ishaq.
We have gotten a bit off topic:
I don't care if a woman chooses to wear a scarf. It is when thay are forced to wear one that I have an issue.
Now the face veil is a different story. A person is a person because of their face- that is how we know who we are speaking to. As infant we look to faces, are drawn to them, it is identity.
Face veils should not be worn/even outlawed? except when worn to protect the face from dust, cold, the elements of nature.
Bringing the discussion back on topic- The violence of the religous police whipping and arresting women for not wearing a veil correctly - asinine!!
You said - "We know she started her menses as she wrote she did in the Ahadith. To be honest many Muslims including myself doubt she was 9 years old and she was being metaphorical or symbolic. Young age is also a compliment of purity. Even today it is common for Arabs to say things like my wife is 2 years old. also the Arabic numbers have word significance the number nine (T'nash) translates as "You Prosper".
However, when read it is always read in the literal sense it is up to the individual to verify any commentary or interpretations.
There is very strong evidence she was older than 9 when they were married."
Can Islam be reformed in this area? Who will lead it? Think of all the young girls you would be saving. Allowing them a childhood. Stop the Quran and Mohammad sanctioned violence against children!
We will have to agree to disagree on Ishaq, Bukhari has actually verified stories from Ishaq.
Ishaq and Bukhari probably collected many of the same oral traditions. Ishaq was born in 704 Bukhari lived 810-870AD. They were both probably familiar with the oral traditions. However Isahaq did not list or verify his sources and was not accepted. He only wrote his single copy. Hisham based his work on fragments of that copy
You would need to follow Bukhari's chains of Narration and determination of reliability to see how much credence Bukhari placed on Ishaq.
Islam is very individualistic. We see all things as personal responsibility. It is our own responsibility to find the tafsir of the Qur'an. While we can use the the findings of the scholars as starting points, it ultimately is our personal responsibility to find the true meanings. we have not central leaders, no ordained clergy, no central, standard method of teaching. It is all between the individual and God(swt). the only things all Muslims have in common are the 5 Pillars of Faith.
The main seperation between Sunni and Shi'i is the Shi'i do follow a central leader, the Ayatollah of Iran. To the Shi'i he is infallible, and his Fatwahs are commands required to be followed. the rest of us see fatwahs as being opinions and not to be considered commandments.
Islam is not a cookbook religion with recipes, it is a way of life in which the individual is to seek guidance from God(swt) in all matters.
Many of us will follow one of the 4 Sunni Madhabs or the Sufi path which ever we find to be the most compatible with were we live. I started on the Sufi path as I like the Sufi way of life however, I could not agree with the Sufi Veneration of Saints and find the Hanafi Madhab to be the best for myself, living in the USA.
You are not stating any commandments to Muslim, you are stating what God(swt) said to the angels. This was what would await the wrong doers if they failed to repent.
When you read a surha, read the entire surah so you will have some idea as to who was being spoken to, when and what the overall subject of the surah is.
You know that's not how people read the scriptures. They take a verse, and then they apply it. I invite you to quote the verse around the verse I quoted to see if they contradict it...
I want you to answer some questions.
1. Do you think everyone, including women, homosexuals and infidels should have equal rights to a male muslim?
2. Do you think punishment for homosexuality is alright?
3. Would this punishment for homosexuality include mutilation and the death sentence?
4. What is the punishment for leaving islam, returning to islam, and repeating this step numerous times?
5. If I insulted Muhammad should I be punished?
6. If I insulted islam should I be punished?
7. Would any of this punishment include mutilation, torture or public execution?
.
I want you to answer some questions.
1. Do you think everyone, including women, homosexuals and infidels should have equal rights to a male muslim?
2. Do you think punishment for homosexuality is alright?
3. Would this punishment for homosexuality include mutilation and the death sentence?
4. What is the punishment for leaving islam, returning to islam, and repeating this step numerous times?
5. If I insulted Muhammad should I be punished?
6. If I insulted islam should I be punished?
7. Would any of this punishment include mutilation, torture or public execution?
I follow the Hanafi Madhab so my answers reflect Hanafi Sharia. Hanafi is the largest madhab of the sunni.
1. Do you think everyone, including women, homosexuals and infidels should have equal rights to a male muslim?
Yes
2. Do you think punishment for homosexuality is alright?
For being homosexual no. For performing explicit sex acts publicly, yes
3. Would this punishment for homosexuality include mutilation and the death sentence?
If it consisted of rape, or any forced sex act The death penalty may be appropriate, although the court should do it's best to find reason for leniency.
4. What is the punishment for leaving islam, returning to islam, and repeating this step numerous times?
In the hanafi madhab there is no earthly punishment for apostasy unless it is part of another crime such as treason.
5. If I insulted Muhammad should I be punished?
Yes, but not by man. By God(swt) after death.
6. If I insulted islam should I be punished?
Same as 5
7. Would any of this punishment include mutilation, torture or public execution?
In the Hanafi madhab of shariah there are 5 crimes that permit an earthly punishment.
1. Highway robbery
2. Theft
3. Illegal sexual relations
4. False accusation of illegal sexual relations
5. Drinking alcohol
The first 5 have a maximum punishment of Death, However the courts are obligated to seek justification for the least punishment or reason to not impose any Punishment. Most Islamic Nations that follow the Hanafi madhab have outlawed the death penalty.
Typically the punishment applied will be the one traditionally used in the nation, provided it does not exceed the maximum allowed by Hanafi Madhab.
Drinking of alcohol is usually in accordance with local custom but can not result in death or any long term physical pain.
Two of the other 3 madhabs follow the same guidelines of the Hanafi. The hanbali is the exception and requires the maximum punishment permitted unless reason can be shown not to.
Iran is Shi'a and follows Jafa'ari Sharia a Madhab not recognized by the sunni.
Out of the 49 Islamic Nations there are 4 that continue to use the Death penalty those are Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi.
Last edited by Woodrow LI; 07-04-2012 at 07:44 PM..
You know that's not how people read the scriptures. They take a verse, and then they apply it. I invite you to quote the verse around the verse I quoted to see if they contradict it...
Most Muslims read the Qur'an in Arabic. When you read it in Arabic it is nearly impossible to read one ayyat at a time. Word definitions will change based upon the ayats before and after it.
But to look at the ayyats you quoted I believe they are from surat al-Baqerah
Starting with the first one and using the Yusuf Ali translation:
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not
That is al-Baqerah 216
Looking into this portion of the surah. It is about trials we will face and must face them. It is possible our nation will be involved in war and if so it is our obligation to fight even if we dislike fighting.
212 . The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe.But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will. 213 . Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy.Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed.For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight. 214 . Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah." Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near! 215 . They ask thee what they should spend (In charity).Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers.And whatever ye do that is good, -(Allah) knoweth it well. 216 . Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 217 . They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month.Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter.Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. 218 . Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah.And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Now to read it in arabic as most Muslim would read it we would read ayyats 212-218 as a single line and not split it up.
to comprehend Arabic you pretty much have to treat each line as if it were a single word.
Ayyat 216 in Arabic read by itself makes very little sense.
Trying to read it with out reference to the context I have no way to understand what Kutiba is about. Is it refering to fighting, struggles or trials? There is no way to associate antum laa taclamon with anything in the ayyat. I need to see more to understand even the tense or the ayyat, I can not tell if it means now, past or future.
I follow the Hanafi Madhab so my answers reflect Hanafi Sharia. Hanafi is the largest madhab of the sunni.
1. Do you think everyone, including women, homosexuals and infidels should have equal rights to a male muslim?
Yes
Could you please quote where your religion says that everyone should have equal rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
2. Do you think punishment for homosexuality is alright?
For being homosexual no. For performing explicit sex acts publicly, yes
Would this also include kissing in public?
Can homosexuals have a romantic relationship?
Can 2 consenting adults do what they want to each other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
4. What is the punishment for leaving islam, returning to islam, and repeating this step numerous times?
In the hanafi madhab there is no earthly punishment for apostasy unless it is part of another crime such as treason.
So this could be construed as treason?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
5. If I insulted Muhammad should I be punished?
Yes, but not by man. By God(swt) after death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
6. If I insulted islam should I be punished?
Same as 5
Can you quote for me where it says this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
7. Would any of this punishment include mutilation, torture or public execution?
In the Hanafi madhab of shariah there are 5 crimes that permit an earthly punishment.
1. Highway robbery
2. Theft
3. Illegal sexual relations
4. False accusation of illegal sexual relations
5. Drinking alcohol
The first 5 have a maximum punishment of Death, However the courts are obligated to seek justification for the least punishment or reason to not impose any Punishment. Most Islamic Nations that follow the Hanafi madhab have outlawed the death penalty.
Typically the punishment applied will be the one traditionally used in the nation, provided it does not exceed the maximum allowed by Hanafi Madhab.
Drinking of alcohol is usually in accordance with local custom but can not result in death or any long term physical pain.
Two of the other 3 madhabs follow the same guidelines of the Hanafi. The hanbali is the exception and requires the maximum punishment permitted unless reason can be shown not to.
Iran is Shi'a and follows Jafa'ari Sharia a Madhab not recognized by the sunni.
Out of the 49 Islamic Nations there are 4 that continue to use the Death penalty those are Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi.
Number 3 caught my eye, what is illegal sexual relations? An drinking alcohol is punishable! That's absurd. I'm assuming the punishment for this is some sort of violent act against this person?
Most Muslims read the Qur'an in Arabic. When you read it in Arabic it is nearly impossible to read one ayyat at a time. Word definitions will change based upon the ayats before and after it.
But to look at the ayyats you quoted I believe they are from surat al-Baqerah
Starting with the first one and using the Yusuf Ali translation:
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not
That is al-Baqerah 216
Looking into this portion of the surah. It is about trials we will face and must face them. It is possible our nation will be involved in war and if so it is our obligation to fight even if we dislike fighting.
212 . The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe.But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will. 213 . Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy.Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed.For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight. 214 . Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah." Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near! 215 . They ask thee what they should spend (In charity).Say: Whatever ye spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those in want and for wayfarers.And whatever ye do that is good, -(Allah) knoweth it well. 216 . Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it.But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 217 . They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month.Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter.Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. 218 . Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah.And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Now to read it in arabic as most Muslim would read it we would read ayyats 212-218 as a single line and not split it up.
to comprehend Arabic you pretty much have to treat each line as if it were a single word.
Ayyat 216 in Arabic read by itself makes very little sense.
Trying to read it with out reference to the context I have no way to understand what Kutiba is about. Is it refering to fighting, struggles or trials? There is no way to associate antum laa taclamon with anything in the ayyat. I need to see more to understand even the tense or the ayyat, I can not tell if it means now, past or future.
I posted 3 different muslim scholars translated roughly the same, are you saying they are wrong?
I posted 3 different muslim scholars translated roughly the same, are you saying they are wrong?
Not one of those Translators was an Islamic Scholar. They were translators. No Translation of the Qur'an is the Quran. All translations are an approximation.
Yusud Ali has put his commentaries into his translation , his commentaries are considered to be quite inaccurate.
Quote:
The said translation ( and especially the commentary ) should be avoided.
A criticism of Yusuf Ali was compiled by Mujlisul-Ulama of South Africa.
"A Discussion of the Errors of Yusuf Ali" (Transvaal, Rep. South Africa: Young Mens Muslims Association)
If anyone does have this kitaab in electronic form, please do let me know. JazakAllah.
Q. Is it not better to advise people to study the commentary of Yusuf Ali’s Qur`aan translation until a worthier or more authoritative commentary is available in English? At least something could be learned from Yusuf Ali’s commentary regardless of the “errors” pointed out by the Mujlisul Ulama.
A. Your suggestion is tantamount to advocating that a child be allowed to eat poison which it happens to be holding until a sweet or toy could be given to it as a substitute. It is an incumbent duty of every Muslim to abstain and ask others to abstain as well from all such things which despoil one’s faith and beliefs. Yusuf Ali’s “commentary” contains many views and teachings which are contradictory to the teachings and opinions of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) How then is it possible for us to maintain silence or advise Muslims to pursue the study of a book which conflicts with Allah Ta`ala’s Shariah?
Personally I consider Ali's translation to be the best to date, but it should not be read one line at a time. To get a better understanding one should read a minimum of the 3 lines before and the 3 lines after any ayyat to understand the ayyat.
Ali's commentaries while interesting should be avoided by anyone not familiar with tafsir.
The point you said was people normally read and look at scripture one line at a time. I am trying to point out Muslims are to read the Qur'an in Arabic and understand that if they use a translation, it is not the Qur'an.
To understand the Arabic you can not read one line at a time. Even those 3 trahslators would not have been able to conclude that in 216 the word kutiba referred to fighting unless they read 212-218 The words antum laa taclamon have no logical meaning unless you associate them in context of the other lines.
A Muslim reading in Arabic would have to take the ayyats as a single thought an read them as one sentence, in order to comprehend any one ayyat.
But in doing so they would understand that section of the surah is referring to the trials we humans face and that fighting in wars may be one of these trials.
There is no command to fight wantonly or to be violent.
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI I follow the Hanafi Madhab so my answers reflect Hanafi Sharia. Hanafi is the largest madhab of the sunni.
1. Do you think everyone, including women, homosexuals and infidels should have equal rights to a male muslim?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex
Could you please quote where your religion says that everyone should have equal rights.
I will try a short answer. to give you a full in depth answer would be quite lengthy involving quotes from the Qur'an, Sunnah. ahadith the 4 Madhabs and the Tafsir of several Scholars.
This 2 links may suffice although both are lengthy neither is complete.
The first while related refers to equality of all people
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