Group Study of the Qur'an al-Fatiha and Juz 30-Juz 1 (heaven, verses, hell)

[mbplee]

"Others will say that Abrahamic religions were based on ancient myths; not just Abraham Myth but God Myth and Gabrail Myth too.

Too many experts on ancient myths!"

For the lack of historic or archaeological evidence, the religious stories can only be myths.
Faith however, does not require evidence. If you believe, you believe. Nothing can convince you otherwise. Religion is entirely based on Faith.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Others will say that Abrahamic religions were based on ancient myths; not just Abraham Myth but God Myth and Gabrail Myth too.

Too many experts on ancient myths!

Originally Posted by mbplee

For the lack of historic or archaeological evidence, the religious stories can only be myths.

That is nothing but your conjecture!

Originally Posted by mbplee

Faith however, does not require evidence.

Yes, not evidence but it still requires common sense, logic and reason.

Originally Posted by mbplee

If you believe, you believe. Nothing can convince you otherwise.

If you have no faith, nothing will convince you to have faith until the angel of death visits you. Too late to have faith then, after seeing the evidence.

Originally Posted by mbplee

Religion is entirely based on Faith.

English word, "Religion" may be but the Arabic word "Deen" is way of life. This deen is based on logic, common sense, reason and not only on faith. As for faith part, it is about unseen. Have you seen everything in the earth and in the heavens, and beyond?

Keep in mind that this thread is about study of the Qur'an. Most of it is about the unseen.

[11.49] These are announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you, you did not know them-- (neither) you nor your people-- before this; therefore be patient; surely the end is for those who are conscious (of God).
تِلْكَ مِنْ أَنْبَاءِ الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهَا إِلَيْكَ ۖ مَا كُنْتَ تَعْلَمُهَا أَنْتَ وَلَا قَوْمُكَ مِنْ قَبْلِ هَٰذَا ۖ فَاصْبِرْ ۖ إِنَّ الْعَاقِبَةَ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

[mbplee]

Khalif said, "That is nothing but your conjecture!"

It is not conjecture, there simply is no Historical evidence, or archeological artefacts to support all those myths. It requires knowledge and common sense to realise that man has been mislead by through the ages by ideologies created by men. Faith has allowed people to drop their guard and accept their myths as historic stories. When you read verse [11.49] just remember that it is a verse to "protect myths."

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by mbplee

[u][b]For the lack of historic or archaeological evidence, the religious stories can only be myths.

Originally Posted by Khalif

That is nothing but your conjecture!

Originally Posted by mbplee

It is not conjecture, there simply is no Historical evidence, or archeological artefacts to support all those myths.

There is no historical evidence or archeological artefacts to support that those stories are myths; thus only conjecture.

Originally Posted by mbplee

It requires knowledge and common sense to realise that man has been mislead by through the ages by ideologies created by men.

What kind of knowledge or common sense is that other than mere conjecture with no evidence or proof ?

Originally Posted by mbplee

Faith has allowed people to drop their guard and accept their myths as historic stories.

All you have is conjecture.

Originally Posted by mbplee

When you read verse [11.49] just remember that it is a verse to "protect myths."

When you read verse [11:49], keep in mind that the stories are about unseen (something you can't see). How can you claim anything about which you can't see except through conjecture?

[Khalif]

[2.2] The Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who are conscious (of God).
ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ
[2.5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall have salvation.
أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَىٰ هُدًى مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ
[2.6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنْذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنْذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

[mbplee]

Let us take the topic of "revelation." The Quran states that Allah revealed his Words through the Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad. Think on that! Why did Allah need Garbiel to reveal to Muhammad and not go to Muhammad direct, if Allah is all powerful? Archangel Gabriel is a supernatural figure, i.e., he is not natural. He is supernatural, created by man. The Jews have used Gabriel, the Christians have referred to him, and Muslims too have used Gabriel. What doctrine does Gabriel support? Which God does Gabriel serve? All three? The confusion is only possible because Gabriel is a mythical figure created by man. All Spiritual figures are mythical figures. There has never been any historical or archaeological evidence to support these mythical figures. But Faith supports these figures because Faith does not require historical or archaeological evidence to support it. Religion is based entire on man created myths. That is the scientific evidence to date.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by mbplee

Let us take the topic of "revelation." The Quran states that Allah revealed his Words through the Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad. Think on that! Why did Allah need Garbiel to reveal to Muhammad and not go to Muhammad direct, if Allah is all powerful?

This subject is not your field of knowledge. You are trying to discuss or argue about something you don't even understand. I will try to help you understand it if you have will to do so,

Gabriel in the Qur'an is Spirit (Holy Spirit). You are living because of spirit from God. So to communicate with man's spirit, God sends Holy Spirit. Man has spirit from God. Woman has spirit from God. Both communicate with each other through spirit. If one was dead, no spirit, would they be able to communicate with each other? Can you now understand that the medium of communication is possible only through "spirit".

Source of each spirit is God. God doesn't need to talk to man direct but, still, God has spoken to His messengers (it is stated in the second chapter of the Qur'an). God spoke to Adam (Qur'an 2:31-35). God spoke to Moses (Qur'an Chapter 20).

When you read too many mythical books, you see everything as myth.

Originally Posted by mbplee

Archangel Gabriel is a supernatural figure, i.e., he is not natural.

Gabriel is Holy Spirit. If you do not know much about spirit, you are not going to know anything about the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by mbplee

He is supernatural, created by man.

You try to create a supernatural figure and I will see how far you get with your invention.

Originally Posted by mbplee

The Jews have used Gabriel, the Christians have referred to him, and Muslims too have used Gabriel. What doctrine does Gabriel support? Which God does Gabriel serve? All three?

FYI, Only One.

Originally Posted by mbplee

The confusion is only possible because Gabriel is a mythical figure created by man.

I can understand your confusion. Keep reading books on myths.

Originally Posted by mbplee

All Spiritual figures are mythical figures.

I can understand your confusion. You have no knowledge about spirit.

Originally Posted by mbplee

There has never been any historical or archaeological evidence to support these mythical figures.

Carry on in your confusion!

Originally Posted by mbplee

But Faith supports these figures because Faith does not require historical or archaeological evidence to support it.

You too will support on the day angel of death comes to visit you. Your myth will be destroyed on that day.

[56.77] Most surely it is honored Qur'an,
[56.78] In a book that is protected
[56.79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.
[56.80] A revelation by the Lord of the worlds.
[56.81] Do you then hold this announcement in contempt?
[56.82] And to give (it) the lie you make your means of subsistence.
[56.83] Why is it not then that when it comes up to the throat,
[56.84] And you at that time look on--
[56.85] And We are nearer to it than you, but you do not see--
[56.86] Then why is it not-- if you are not held under authority--
[56.87] That you send it (not) back-- if you are truthful?

Originally Posted by mbplee

Religion is based entire on man created myths. That is the scientific evidence to date.

There is no scientific evidence about spirit in you that makes you live. Science is about things you can see, feel, taste, hear and smell. That's why science won't be able to stop you from dying. If scoence is your God then science can't see or smell spirit.

[mbplee]

Spirits, Souls, have been attributed by man and is a figment of the mind. When I die, I will return to earth because there is no heaven or hell to go to. Sad but true.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by mbplee

Spirits, Souls, have been attributed by man and is a figment of the mind. When I die, I will return to earth because there is no heaven or hell to go to. Sad but true.

"Return to earth"? Did you come from earth (figment of your imagination) that you are going to "return" to it? How come you let your guard down here and began to believe in a myth?

Angel of death is going to make you die with the command from Allah.

[32.10] And they say: What! When we have become lost in the earth, shall we then certainly be in a new creation? Nay! They are disbelievers in the meeting of their Lord.
وَقَالُوا أَإِذَا ضَلَلْنَا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَإِنَّا لَفِي خَلْقٍ جَدِيدٍ ۚ بَلْ هُمْ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ كَافِرُونَ

[32.11] Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall cause you to die, then to your Lord you shall be brought back.
قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ

Your mind doesn't understand everything. So don't think it is your God. Your god mind is confused.

As for returning to earth and not becoming alive again, the Qur'an has this to say:

[17.49] And they say: What! when we shall have become bones and decayed particles, shall we then certainly be raised up, being a new creation?
وَقَالُوا أَإِذَا كُنَّا عِظَامًا وَرُفَاتًا أَإِنَّا لَمَبْعُوثُونَ خَلْقًا جَدِيدًا

[17.50] Say: Become stones or iron,
قُلْ كُونُوا حِجَارَةً أَوْ حَدِيدًا

[17.51] Or some other creature of those which are too hard (to receive life) in your minds! But they will say: Who will return us? Say: Who created you at first. Still they will shake their heads at you and say: When will it be? Say: Maybe it has drawn nigh.
أَوْ خَلْقًا مِمَّا يَكْبُرُ فِي صُدُورِكُمْ ۚ فَسَيَقُولُونَ مَنْ يُعِيدُنَا ۖ قُلِ الَّذِي فَطَرَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ ۚ فَسَيُنْغِضُونَ إِلَيْكَ رُءُوسَهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ مَتَىٰ هُوَ ۖ قُلْ عَسَىٰ أَنْ يَكُونَ قَرِيبًا

[17.52] On the day when He will call you forth, then shall you obey Him, giving Him praise, and you will think that you tarried but a little (while).
يَوْمَ يَدْعُوكُمْ فَتَسْتَجِيبُونَ بِحَمْدِهِ وَتَظُنُّونَ إِنْ لَبِثْتُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

[75.3] Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?
أَيَحْسَبُ الْإِنْسَانُ أَلَّنْ نَجْمَعَ عِظَامَهُ

[75.4] Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips.
بَلَىٰ قَادِرِينَ عَلَىٰ أَنْ نُسَوِّيَ بَنَانَهُ

If this Qur'an had been from a man, he would have said "eyes" or "heart" or "brain" which are more difficult to recreate. Why fingertips over 1400 years ago? What is so special about recreation of fingertips of every man?

[Khalif]

Fingertips of each individual carry the uniqueness of that individual apart from anyone who may have completely smooth finger tips. The same way, creation of each individual is and resurrection of that individual will be unique as single individual/soul even if there is mass resurrection of mankind. Uniqueness of individual soul will not be lost at the resurrection regardless of the time s/he had been dead.

[31.28] Neither your creation nor your raising/resurrection (from dead) is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
مَا خَلْقُكُمْ وَلَا بَعْثُكُمْ إِلَّا كَنَفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ بَصِيرٌ