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Old 06-07-2016, 12:11 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
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Now, the small definition of a muslem

He is the man who thinks he has the absolute truth
And rejects any other fact
He believes in the Koran the word of God and refuses to be the Koran Edited by human
The ambition of every Muslim Caliphate State returns
Muslim travels to the land of the infidels
Enjoy the freedoms but challenged the countr
Muslims enjoy slavery of Koran
Bhoriat dreamed of paradise and boys of everlasting youth
That is valid for the bombing of a ticking time bomb
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
an atheist could profess to do that a thousand times a day and it will never make him a Muslim
You are going off point again.
We are dealing with 1.5 billion Muslims who have in some form affirmed the shahaha directly or is a Muslim by default e.g. children of Muslim parents.

No ordinary non-theist will want to submit and affirm the shahada.

Now in this world there will always be some people who are deceptive, pretend and disguise themselves as something else. But how many atheists would pretend to be Muslims in the world right now. Probably a few for some reasons but what is 10 pretending Muslims to 1.5 billion Muslims.
Relative to this reality your point above is insignificant and not relevant to this topic at all.

Nevertheless you should have stated the following;
"atheist could profess to do that [shahada] a thousand times a day and it will never make him a genuine Muslim"
If you add "genuine" before Muslim as in the above, there is no issue with such a statement because it is true.

Therefore as long as someone assert that he has submitted and affirmed the shahada, s/he is technically by definition a Muslim. For social, political, etc., reasons, the onus is on others to prove otherwise.
That person can proceed to perform the 5 pillars of Islam [internally in his mind s/he is merely pretending] and even perform the haj, s/he is technically a Muslim as far as Muslims, humans and humanity are concerned.

Therefore my definition of who is a Muslim, i.e.
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
until it is proven otherwise.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However a person can not be a Muslim without being a Genuine and Sincere Muslim.


Abū Ruqayyah Tamīm b. `Aws al-Dārī relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Religion is Sincerity.”

We asked: “To whom, O Messenger of Allah?”

He said: “To Allah, His Book, His Messenger, and the leaders of the Muslims and to the common Muslim.” [Sahīh Muslim]
The meaning of ‘Religion is sincerity’:

The terms in both the subject and the predicate of this sentence are categorical. This conveys in Arabic an all-inclusive meaning. It is as if the Prophet (peace be upon him) had said: “Religion is naught but sincerity.”

This is a very weighty statement showing the importance of sincerity in Islam. It brings us immediately to ask the question that the Companions asked: Sincerity to whom? The Prophet (peace be upon him) responded by mentioning five things to which Muslims must be sincere. We shall briefly touch upon each of these.

Sincerity to Allah:

Being sincere to Allah is of paramount importance in Islam. There are two aspects to this sincerity. The first of these is sincerity in worship. We must worship Allah alone, offering all of our devotions to him and to no other. The second is sincerity in our belief. We must have absolute faith that Allah alone is our Creator, our Sustainer, and our Lord.

Allah says: “They were not commanded but that they should worship Allah sincerely and worship none but Him, and that they should perform prayer and pay Zakāh. That is the right religion.” [Sūrah Al-Bayyinah: 5]
ā€œReligion is Sincerityā€ | IslamToday - English
The point here there are two perspectives to this;

1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and
2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.

Your problem is you are conflating the two issues.

1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah
Whether a person is really a genuine and sincere Muslim within himself or herself will be decided by Allah. Therefore only Allah can make such a judgment.
As a human you cannot be involved in this affair at all.

2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.
While no humans will be able to know with certainty whether anyone is a genuine Muslim or not, humans has no choice but they still have to determine whether a person is a Muslim or not.
As such the best and conventional way is to refer to the Quran and establish the conventional definition of who is a Muslim.
Such a definition of 'who is a Muslim' is pertinent for many reasons, e.g.

1. To enable others to know a Muslim so that they can respect his beliefs, e.g. when they have to be excused to pray 5 times a day during work, sports, meetings, etc.
2. To give consideration to whoever is a Muslim when he/she/they are fasting,
3. In a non-Muslim country to decide whether there are sufficient Muslims to built a mosque for them to pray.
4. There are many other reasons why we need to know who is a Muslim from the social perspective so that considerations will be given to them and their beliefs.

This is why the definition of "who is a Muslim" is so critical from the human and social perspective.

There will always be pretenders to anything and there will be some pretending to be Muslim when they are not. The onus is on those responsible to find out within the most effective way they can. [using a lie detector, spying, etc.]

As far as who is a Muslim from Allah's perspective, that is none of anyone or Muslims' business and it should be left to Allah who will know what to do if anyone is pretending to be a Muslim for whatever the reason.
28:69. And thy Lord knoweth what thee breasts conceal, and what they publish.
Therefore for the above reasons it is very critical we must establish the conventional meaning of who is a Muslim.

Get my point?

Last edited by Continuum; 06-07-2016 at 01:00 AM..
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Old 06-07-2016, 06:21 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 1,651,915 times
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(the sentence that makes a person a muslim when he say it and confirm it by his heart)

I bear witness that there is no god but Allah
and
I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

Ash-hadu an-la ilaha illa Aِِllah
wa
Ash-hadu anna Muħammadan-RasuluAllah


أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
و
شهد أن محمدا رسول الله
************************************


The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
"If anyone testifies that

None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners,
and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle,
and that Jesus is Allah's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him,
and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true,

Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."

(Junada, the sub-narrator said, " 'Ubada added,
'Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.")
but that doesn't mean attacking others and take their rights.
the rights of the others that were attacked will return to them from the one who took them .


**********************
That Day will every soul be requited for what it earned; no injustice will there be that Day, for Allah is Swift in taking account. The Holy Quran 40.17
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:13 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
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Muslim considers himself as an agent of God
he believe the best nation out of people

He has the right vision of jihad and the sword
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are going off point again.
We are dealing with 1.5 billion Muslims who have in some form affirmed the shahaha directly or is a Muslim by default e.g. children of Muslim parents.

No ordinary non-theist will want to submit and affirm the shahada.

Now in this world there will always be some people who are deceptive, pretend and disguise themselves as something else. But how many atheists would pretend to be Muslims in the world right now. Probably a few for some reasons but what is 10 pretending Muslims to 1.5 billion Muslims.
Relative to this reality your point above is insignificant and not relevant to this topic at all.

Nevertheless you should have stated the following;
"atheist could profess to do that [shahada] a thousand times a day and it will never make him a genuine Muslim"
If you add "genuine" before Muslim as in the above, there is no issue with such a statement because it is true.

Therefore as long as someone assert that he has submitted and affirmed the shahada, s/he is technically by definition a Muslim. For social, political, etc., reasons, the onus is on others to prove otherwise.
That person can proceed to perform the 5 pillars of Islam [internally in his mind s/he is merely pretending] and even perform the haj, s/he is technically a Muslim as far as Muslims, humans and humanity are concerned.

Therefore my definition of who is a Muslim, i.e.
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
until it is proven otherwise.
How do you know a person has done this:

Quote:
entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.

Yes if a person has done that is a Muslim. But there is no way to know if they have. You can only know who says the have. But, you will never know if they actually have done so.
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Old 06-07-2016, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
How do you know a person has done this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
That is very easy.
When a person expressed and affirmed the Shahada in front of the necessary witnesses which also implied s/he has submitted and entered into a covenant with Allah.

Note a covenant is a contract/agreement of a spiritual nature between God and the individual believer.

Thus if a person has done the above s/he a Muslim legally or by social conventions, i.e. it is legally recognized by the authorities, relatives and friends.

Quote:
But there is no way to know if they have.
You can only know who says the have.
But, you will never know if they actually have done so.
You still have not got my point.

It is not your concern to know if they have with 100% absolute certainty, that's Allah responsibility.

Legally* and conventionally, unless there are evidences to prove otherwise, if a person has affirmed the shahada in front of witnesses, it is none of your [mine and others] business to doubt whether s/he is a genuine Muslims or not. That is Allah's responsibility and Allah being all-knowing knows what to do.
*Where Islamic Laws are in effect.

Here is one analogy:
If a pretender sign a marriage contract with another,
it is legally recognized by the authorities, relatives and friends.
But who will ever know [other than the pretender] that it is a genuine marriage without any deception.
There are many marriage contracts [legally recognized] but the intent is out of deception, e.g. one may marry a rich partner for the money. There are many cases where the deceiver enter in a legal marriage but soon poison the other to get the money or other interests.
Therefore you and any one will never know if a marriage is certainly genuine.
Do you agree with this?

The above analogy is applicable to a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah.
No one will know the true intention in the person's mind whether there is a true intention or there is a pretention.

But as I had stated it is nobody's business, you, me or anyone to establish 100% certainty whether a person is truly a Muslim or not, from Allah's perspective. It is only Allah who will decide who is a true Muslim anytime and on J-DAY to decide one's fate to Paradise.

The only way humans should necessary judge whether a person is a Muslim who had entered into a covenant is from the following legal or conventional means;

1. Affirmation of the Shahada in front of witnesses which implied submission.
2. Children born of Muslim parents.

Who is a Muslim?
Therefore if a person comply and conform with 1 & 2, then s/he is a Muslim by such legal and conventional procedures until proven otherwise.

As for who is a Muslim in the eyes of Allah, that is nobody's business other than Allah's.
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Old 06-08-2016, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Point 2 is correct.As we can not know who is a Muslim we have to accept every one who says he is Muslim as being Muslim. But we will never know if they actually are. We have no membership, a person does not join Islam.

If yu were to tell me you are a Muslim I would accept you as being a Muslim even though I am fairly certain you do not believe Allaah(swt) exists.
If I inform you now that I am a Muslim, based on average intelligence, you should doubt due to the circumstance and contexts surrounding my announcement due to the following;

1. See "Location" on the top right hand corner of my posts, it is stated 'Not-a-theist' and I have not changed it.
2. All the threads and posting I have raised and posted indicate I am not a Muslim.

Therefore even if you accept my declaration I am a Muslim you should take it as 0.001% probability and increase your confidence level if I changed "Location" to 'Theist' or 'Muslim'.
Then you will increase your confidence level and increase further based on the contents of my posts, even then your confidence level should be raised to say not more than 40%.
You will need to collect more evidence to increase further to say 50%, 60% but you can never reached a confidence level of 100% I am a Muslim.

Even with you I cannot be sure you are 100% a Muslim. You and Khalif could be pretending to be Muslims to post in this forum for whatever the reason.

It is only Allah [all knowing] who knows the real intention in your mind.

Quote:
Once a person says they are Muslim they have to be accepted as being Muslim. It is virtually impossible for us to prove they are not after they have said they are. We could point out and say their actions are not Islamic and address the actions, but can not say the person is not Muslim. (Unless the person does non-Islamic acts, repeatedly after being told the actions are not Islamic
In the eyes of humans and not Allah;
Once a person says they are Muslim - we cannot accept them as a 100% true Muslim instantly but we have to place some confidence levels on our judgment based on the available evidence.
But in general once it is evident a person has declared and affirmed the Shahada we can say that person is a 51% Muslim until proven otherwise.
Then we gather other evidences to assess to what extent is the person a Muslim.

Quote:
It takes a considerable amount of proof to indicate a person, that said he is Muslim, is not Muslim, unless they them self say they are not Muslim. However, if they had ever said they were Muslim they would be assumed to be an apostate, it they say they are not a Muslim, even if they claim they lied when they said they were.
As I had stated in my earlier post, the most critical consideration to discuss whether a person is a Muslim or not is to be totally are of this two perspective and ensure we do not conflate them when present our views, i.e.

1. Muslim in the "eyes" of Allah and

2. Muslim in the "eyes" of humans in human society.


The above two perspectives are very critical to ensure our views make sense.

In the "eyes" of Allah, there is no issue because Allah is all-knowing.

In the 'eyes' of society then one need various social objective evidence but there is no 100% certainty a person is a genuine Muslim. Legally [where Islamic Law applies] then there are legal conditions to qualify one as a Muslim.

Quote:
Now from a social perspective, there is no centralized social standards for Muslims, there is no such thing as an "Islamic Culture"
Agree there is no centralized authority to make any ultimate judgment for all Muslims.

But to decide who is a Muslim, we can rely on the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah to set a standard as to 'Who is a Muslim?'
It is obvious Allah has set the definition for Who is a Muslim.
It is obvious from the Quran, a person is a Muslim once the person has declared and affirm the Shahada [essentially that two critical elements] which implied submission as well.

What is Islamic Culture is not a significant issue.
What is critical is for a Muslim who has entered into a covenant [spiritual contract] with Allah to comply with all the relevant terms and conditions of the covenant which is in the Quran and no where else.

That is obvious because once any contract is signed the parties to the contract must comply to all the terms and conditions where applicable within that signed-contract and no where else. In a contract, if there are new conditions outside the existing contract, the parties concern must agree and sign for the changes.
In the case of covenant with Allah there is no room for changes to the covenant once it is agreed.
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Old 06-08-2016, 01:30 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,499 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth_teller View Post
(the sentence that makes a person a muslim when he say it and confirm it by his heart)

I bear witness that there is no god but Allah
and
I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

Ash-hadu an-la ilaha illa Aِِllah
wa
Ash-hadu anna Muħammadan-RasuluAllah


أشهد أن لا اله إلا الله
و
شهد أن محمدا رسول الله
************************************


The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said,
"If anyone testifies that

None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners,
and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle,
and that Jesus is Allah's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him,
and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true,

Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few."

(Junada, the sub-narrator said, " 'Ubada added,
'Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.")
but that doesn't mean attacking others and take their rights.
the rights of the others that were attacked will return to them from the one who took them .


**********************
That Day will every soul be requited for what it earned; no injustice will there be that Day, for Allah is Swift in taking account. The Holy Quran 40.17
I'd say no god but Allah
Will you accept this faith
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Old 06-08-2016, 02:52 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If one has read the whole-Quran more than 50 times, one will understand what Allah's definition of a Muslim.
A slave of Allah or others cannot decide on their own who is a Muslim.

I have read the Quran more than 50 times and from the Quran I understand the definition of who is a Muslim to be;
A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the shahada or its like and submitting [islam] to Allah.
After reading the Qur'an translations fast 50+ times, did you understand the terms of the "covenant" for both parties in the covenant?

Quote:
Read all the verses which has the element 'covenant' and together with other relevant verses one will understand 'who is a Muslim' based on the overall context of the Quran. Here is one verse where the implication is obvious;
2:27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.
How does one break the covenant and become a loser from being a Muslim?

Quote:
Elsewhere in the Quran, one will note a Muslims has to ratify* the covenant with Allah.
Not necessary literally but by deeds that signify ratification.
Therefore, ratifying the covenant or breaking the covenant are two different actions that makes one a Muslim or a non-muslim but what is the covenant?

A Muslim is someone who "believes" in Allah and His messages, and "obeys" the commands from Allah in His messages.

"Muslim" is not a permanent label as it depends on obeying Allah's commands even after saying Shahada. To be precise, one is a Muslim during the action of obeying Allah and not a Muslim when disobeying Allah. This is why even a Muslim will be judged, on the day of judgment, on his deeds of obeying Allah or disobeying Allah.
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