What is Eeman? (pigs, verses, hell, revelation)

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

As a counter to however you justified, note

39:12 And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

Allah stated, first is to be Muslim, Allah did not state first to be Mu'min.
To be a Mu'min one has to work hard for it in developing strong Eeman.

I am surprised that you are reading the verse 39:12 like a 5 year kid will read it.

If you had read the verse in context (39:10-12) you would have understood it the other way round.

39:10 Say, "O my servants who believe! Be consious of your Lord. For those who do good, there is good, and Allah's earth is spacious. Verily the patient ones will be paid their wages without stint."

39:11 Say, "indeed, I have been commanded to worship Allah, sincere to Him in deen.

39:12 "And I have been commanded to be the first (among you) of the Muslimeen."

The message in these verses is from Allah for those who Believed (Believers= Mu'mineen). They are already Mu'mineen. Now they are commanded to do more in deen by worshipping Allah. Muhammad and his followers are already Mu'mineen but Muhammad is commanded to be the first Muslim out of them. The rest of the Mu'mineen will have to follow Muhammad and be Muslims by doing more than just believing in Allah.

Believers first and then Muslims!

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

For starters the concepts of pronouns are different in Arabic.. There is a a concept of ownership that is reflected by variations in the spelling of the Nouns and verbs. As Arabic is not an Indo-European language you do not have the same parts of speech that are found in English and other Indo-European languages. They do not even have similar grammar rules.

Note sure what is your point.
What I said earlier, I merely added the specific people to words like 'they' 'them' "us' etc. Therefore I would add [infidels] to they[infidels] if it really refer to 'infidels' in accordance to that verse. Thus when I read the verse the second time I don't have to find out again who 'they' refer to.

If you are reading the Qur'an in less than 30 hours you are missing the interplay of the groups, each Surah is repeated 3 times, each addressed to a specific group. But then again I could be just expressing my dislike of every translation I have read. Although I rather like the Spanish and French translations and of the English translation find Assad's interpretation to come closer to the Arabic meanings than the attempts at translations. While Assad is not a translation he carries the concepts better than the translations do.

I will agree if one read the Quran in 10 hours the first time, then one will be missing a lot.
What I meant is I can read the Quran within 10 hours after having read it more than 50 times and I have smoothen the reading with additional notes and points in parenthesis together with a summary for each verse in a side column. This claim is supported by the listing of 1-8 process of expediting the reading speed.

French and Spanish translations come closer to the connotation of the Arabic than the English does, possibly because there was quite a bit of Arabic influence in those 2 languages. They also do not reflect the violence that English imparts.

Your seem to be a general view and could be bias.
Have you read at least 20 French or Spanish translations?

I refer to 46 English translations of the Quran and there are a vast range of translated meaning for various verses. Some of the evil laden elements are muted while some are extreme. I rely on the context of the paragraph, chapter and the whole of the Quran.

I would not suggest you generalize Asad as closer the Arabic meaning. I noted there are times where Asad is closer to the context but not always in some very sensitive concepts. I rely on Pickthall [less biasness] as my main reference but he is not perfect as well, i.e. he is closer to the intended meaning for many but not all the time. Bottom line is whoever we rely on for translation, it must be objective to the context of the whole Quran.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

Note sure what is your point.
What I said earlier, I merely added the specific people to words like 'they' 'them' "us' etc. Therefore I would add [infidels] to they[infidels] if it really refer to 'infidels' in accordance to that verse. Thus when I read the verse the second time I don't have to find out again who 'they' refer to.

I will agree if one read the Quran in 10 hours the first time, then one will be missing a lot.
What I meant is I can read the Quran within 10 hours after having read it more than 50 times and I have smoothen the reading with additional notes and points in parenthesis together with a summary for each verse in a side column. This claim is supported by the listing of 1-8 process of expediting the reading speed.

Your seem to be a general view and could be bias.
Have you read at least 20 French or Spanish translations?

I refer to 46 English translations of the Quran and there are a vast range of translated meaning for various verses. Some of the evil laden elements are muted while some are extreme. I rely on the context of the paragraph, chapter and the whole of the Quran.

I would not suggest you generalize Asad as closer the Arabic meaning. I noted there are times where Asad is closer to the context but not always in some very sensitive concepts. I rely on Pickthall [less biasness] as my main reference but he is not perfect as well, i.e. he is closer to the intended meaning for many but not all the time. Bottom line is whoever we rely on for translation, it must be objective to the context of the whole Quran.

As a person who has read the Qur'an over 100 times in Arabic, I believe is acceptable for me to give my opinion as to which English translation comes the closest to the Arabic and that is Assad. Although it is an interpretation and not a translation.

I only use translations of the Qur'an when speaking with non-Muslims. For my personal reading I only use Arabic. I never even knew there were translations until a year or 2 after I accepted Islam. Still have not found any I consider accurate. but I do find Assad to be closer to the Arabic than any translation.(I began reading it in Arabic in 1960 when I first went to Morocco. I used it as a study guide while taking Arabic classes in Rabat.) I believe I read Arabic reasonably well, been reading it for over 50 years.My personal opinion is Assad is the English translation that comes closest to the Arabic. At least in how I have been understanding the Arabic. Here is an online French Translation I find to be very close to the Arabic meanings

Translation of the Holy Quran in FRENCH Language

No I have not read many French or Spanish translations. However I have read the early Classic French. Most of the modern ones in both French or Spanish are actually translations from Yusuf ali or Picktall. It is very hard to find one in French or Spanish that is translated directly from the Arabic. Although I found French ones to be common in Morocco when I lived there. Most of the French Muslims I know are from Morocco. I did come across a Spanish Translation when I lived in Mexico. there are also Spanish Mosques in Austin and San Antonio Texas and Spanish translations can be obtained from them.

There are not many common translations of the Qur'an except for the English ones. For much of the world You will only find it in Arabic. However I Have found translations in Malay, Turkish, Farsi, Urdu, Darija (Moroccan Arabic) and MSA (Modern Standard Arabic). But I have only read translations in English, French, Spanish, Darija and MSA with any acceptable level of comprehension. I have read it in Italian and German but I do not understand much Italian or German I did try to read it in Russian, but that was almost a lost cause. The Translation I had was basically not a Translation more of a Transliteration. (Russian was my birth language and what I originally spoke, although my family was from Lithuania)

From the Chinese Muslims I have met it is my understanding that only the Arabic is available in China and the Qur'an has never been Translated into Chinese (according to my friends) although there are more Muslims in China than in Syria.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

As a person who has read the Qur'an over 100 times in Arabic, I believe is acceptable for me to give my opinion as to which English translation comes the closest to the Arabic and that is Assad. Although it is an interpretation and not a translation.

I only use translations of the Qur'an when speaking with non-Muslims. For my personal reading I only use Arabic. I never even knew there were translations until a year or 2 after I accepted Islam. Still have not found any I consider accurate. but I do find Assad to be closer to the Arabic than any translation.

I too have found Asad's "Message of the Qur'an" to be not only quite different but the nearest one can combine translation and interpretation. He even gives reason why he has translated a certain Arabic word in his way to express the nearest meaning possible in English. Not only that but he links other verses on the same subject and his commentary on those verses too. Whenever I have seen difference in other translation, I check with Asad's translation and commentary to get to the heart of what is being expressed in the verse.

The above is how I found Asad to be the only accurate translation of 49:14. The most important points made in that verse were (a) wandering Arabs did not "believe" and (b) the verse ends with "if"they obey Allah and His messenger. The latter was there telling them to obey the commands in the message (be Muslims by obeying).

Wherever it is stated in in the Qur'an, "obey Allah and obey the messenger" (4:49, 5:92, 24:54, 47:33, 64:12) or "obey Allah and His messenger" (8:1, 8:20, 8:46, 9:71, 33:33, 49:14, 58:13), it means obey the commands in the message from Allah that is delivered by His messenger. It is never meant to be obeying Allah seperately and obeying Muhammad seperately. Therefore, clearly the wandering Arabs were not obeying Allah and His messenger but obeying Muhammad only which was submitting to Muhammad only to get some brownie points from Muhammad.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

As a person who has read the Qur'an over 100 times in Arabic, I believe is acceptable for me to give my opinion as to which English translation comes the closest to the Arabic and that is Assad. Although it is an interpretation and not a translation.

As a Muslim you MUST be positively bias with the Quran and Islam, otherwise your faith will not work.
I don't think you are in a position to generalize and we must assess Assad's translation on a verse to verse basis in comparison to the other translators. I note at time Assad is more accurate in certain verses while others are more accurate than Assad in other verses.
One example of the wrong interpretation by Assad is 49:14.

I know it is not easy but try reading the Quran another few times from an objective perspective and in chronologically order. Now when reading the chronological order note the incremental emotional tone within the Quran from beginning to end.

I only use translations of the Qur'an when speaking with non-Muslims. For my personal reading I only use Arabic. I never even knew there were translations until a year or 2 after I accepted Islam. Still have not found any I consider accurate. but I do find Assad to be closer to the Arabic than any translation.(I began reading it in Arabic in 1960 when I first went to Morocco. I used it as a study guide while taking Arabic classes in Rabat.) I believe I read Arabic reasonably well, been reading it for over 50 years.My personal opinion is Assad is the English translation that comes closest to the Arabic. At least in how I have been understanding the Arabic. Here is an online French Translation I find to be very close to the Arabic meanings

Translation of the Holy Quran in FRENCH Language

No I have not read many French or Spanish translations. However I have read the early Classic French. Most of the modern ones in both French or Spanish are actually translations from Yusuf ali or Picktall. It is very hard to find one in French or Spanish that is translated directly from the Arabic. Although I found French ones to be common in Morocco when I lived there. Most of the French Muslims I know are from Morocco. I did come across a Spanish Translation when I lived in Mexico. there are also Spanish Mosques in Austin and San Antonio Texas and Spanish translations can be obtained from them.

Now you admit you have not read many French or Spanish translations. For your views to be credible you will need to read at least 10 translations from different people of different groups or sects.

There are not many common translations of the Qur'an except for the English ones. For much of the world You will only find it in Arabic. However I Have found translations in Malay, Turkish, Farsi, Urdu, Darija (Moroccan Arabic) and MSA (Modern Standard Arabic). But I have only read translations in English, French, Spanish, Darija and MSA with any acceptable level of comprehension. I have read it in Italian and German but I do not understand much Italian or German I did try to read it in Russian, but that was almost a lost cause. The Translation I had was basically not a Translation more of a Transliteration. (Russian was my birth language and what I originally spoke, although my family was from Lithuania)

From the Chinese Muslims I have met it is my understanding that only the Arabic is available in China and the Qur'an has never been Translated into Chinese (according to my friends) although there are more Muslims in China than in Syria.

Whatever the language, to give any credible views you will need to refer to at least 10 translation by different people from different groups or sects.

One question;

Re 5:60

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

I find 5:60 to be derogatory and dehumanizing to the Jews.
Such types of condemnation with other similar one will influence SOME [not all] Muslims to hate the Jews.
Now did the French and Spanish translators translate "apes" and "swine" as the same in their respective language [singe and mono] or in a different less derogatory sense.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

As a Muslim you MUST be positively bias with the Quran and Islam, otherwise your faith will not work.
I don't think you are in a position to generalize and we must assess Assad's translation on a verse to verse basis in comparison to the other translators. I note at time Assad is more accurate in certain verses while others are more accurate than Assad in other verses.
One example of the wrong interpretation by Assad is 49:14.

I know it is not easy but try reading the Quran another few times from an objective perspective and in chronologically order. Now when reading the chronological order note the incremental emotional tone within the Quran from beginning to end.


Now you admit you have not read many French or Spanish translations. For your views to be credible you will need to read at least 10 translations from different people of different groups or sects.

Whatever the language, to give any credible views you will need to refer to at least 10 translation by different people from different groups or sects.

One question;

Re 5:60

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

I find 5:60 to be derogatory and dehumanizing to the Jews.
Such types of condemnation with other similar one will influence SOME [not all] Muslims to hate the Jews.
Now did the French and Spanish translators translate "apes" and "swine" as the same in their respective language [singe and mono] or in a different less derogatory sense.

I doubt very Much the Qur'an has been translated into French and Spanish more than 2-3 times each . I am only aware of 2 French translations and one Spanish translation

Outside of English translations are not used much and for most languages there are only 1 or 2 translations.

I did find that there are 4 Spanish Translations I have read 2 of them

It turns out I have read all of the French Translations both of them. There was a third earlier French translation that was very anti Islam and was Written by the Catholic Church with the purpose of persuading the French from accepting Islam. I do not think that one still exists

The only German Translation turns out to have been translated from the Classic French Translation and not directly from Arabic.

There have not been many translations written except in English.

The First Translation was in the 10th Century when it was translated into Persian (Farsi) the next Translation did not come until a Latin translation in the 12 century a very anti Islamic translationtion titled " Lex Mahumet pseudoprophete ("The law of Mahomet the false prophet")" The first translation into Turkish was in 1935. It is only recently it has begun being translated into Indonesian, Beginning in 1995. (My source for dates is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations)

Earlier in another thread I made the Comment that Most Muslims have never read the Qur'an only translation. I have admit I was very wrong as translations do not exist in most languages. I was especially surprised to learn it is only in recent times it has been available in some of the Indonesian languages as Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country.

On the other hand that also means that Most Muslims in the world have never read your "Violent Verses"

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

One example of the wrong interpretation by Assad is 49:14.

One classic example of Asad getting it right is 49:14. All the others are wrong simply because there can be no Muslim who is not believer. Others are saying that unbelievers are submitting so the unbelievers are Muslims.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Continuum

As a Muslim you MUST be positively bias with the Quran and Islam, otherwise your faith will not work.
I don't think you are in a position to generalize and we must assess Assad's translation on a verse to verse basis in comparison to the other translators. I note at time Assad is more accurate in certain verses while others are more accurate than Assad in other verses.
One example of the wrong interpretation by Assad is 49:14.

I know it is not easy but try reading the Quran another few times from an objective perspective and in chronologically order. Now when reading the chronological order note the incremental emotional tone within the Quran from beginning to end.


Now you admit you have not read many French or Spanish translations. For your views to be credible you will need to read at least 10 translations from different people of different groups or sects.

Whatever the language, to give any credible views you will need to refer to at least 10 translation by different people from different groups or sects.

One question;

Re 5:60

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

I find 5:60 to be derogatory and dehumanizing to the Jews.
Such types of condemnation with other similar one will influence SOME [not all] Muslims to hate the Jews.
Now did the French and Spanish translators translate "apes" and "swine" as the same in their respective language [singe and mono] or in a different less derogatory sense.

I read the Qur'an many more times as a Non-Muslim then as a Muslim. I first began reading the Qur'an in 1961 and did not accept Islam until 2005 during that time I am geuessing I read it a minimum of 50 times. My purpose was 2 fold, 1. To grasp a better understanding of the Arabic language 2. To enable me to argue with Muslims. I believed very much like you do(In regards to the Qur'an being filled with violence)

The Qur'an contains nothing that in one form or another did not come from the past scriptures of the Jews. Christians and Sabeeans.

5;60 is an expansion of what came before in the Bible and was derived from these verses

Numbers 14
10 But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.
11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."

Numbers 14
22 not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times-
23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it.
24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Numbers 16
29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me.
30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart
Exodus 32
1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."

Exodus 32
7 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt.
8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people.

Exodus 34
8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

Deuteronomy 31
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Numbers 16
12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, "We will not come!
13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us?
14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you gouge out the eyes of these men? No, we will not come!"

Numbers 14
10 But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.
11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them?
12 I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."


Again, even the Bible gives ample evidence of their blasphemy to GOD Almighty. You can read in full details the following Biblical books:

Exodus 32 - They built their golden calf god using their jewelry.

Exodus 34 - The Jews are hard-headed people who don't listen.

Deuteronomy 31 - Moses is concerned about the Jews' future after his death because they are constantly rebellious against the Holy Words and Law of GOD Almighty.

SOURCE

Except for events that occurred during the lifetime you will find that the Qur'an is a condensed version of the previous scripture and in some cases reworded to be understood by the people living at the time of Muhammad(SAWS)

You will find many non-Muslims make the comment the Qur'an was plagiarized from the Bible. It actually is the same message that is found in the Bible. Exact same messages and lessons,Nothing added, but the errors not included.

[Khalif]

And we shouldn't ignore 3000 golden calf worshipping Jews (Exodus 32:28) who were slaughtered by the other Jews (sons of Levi).

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

I read the Qur'an many more times as a Non-Muslim then as a Muslim. I first began reading the Qur'an in 1961 and did not accept Islam until 2005 during that time I am geuessing I read it a minimum of 50 times. My purpose was 2 fold, 1. To grasp a better understanding of the Arabic language 2. To enable me to argue with Muslims. I believed very much like you do(In regards to the Qur'an being filled with violence)

The Qur'an contains nothing that in one form or another did not come from the past scriptures of the Jews. Christians and Sabeeans.

5;60 is an expansion of what came before in the Bible and was derived from these verses

Numbers 14

Numbers 16

Exodus 32

Exodus 34

Deuteronomy 31

Numbers 16

Numbers 14

Exodus 32 - They built their golden calf god using their jewelry.

Exodus 34 - The Jews are hard-headed people who don't listen.

Deuteronomy 31 - Moses is concerned about the Jews' future after his death because they are constantly rebellious against the Holy Words and Law of GOD Almighty.

SOURCE

Except for events that occurred during the lifetime you will find that the Qur'an is a condensed version of the previous scripture and in some cases reworded to be understood by the people living at the time of Muhammad(SAWS)

You will find many non-Muslims make the comment the Qur'an was plagiarized from the Bible. It actually is the same message that is found in the Bible. Exact same messages and lessons,Nothing added, but the errors not included.

You are deflecting and did not answer my question at all, i.e.
Now did the French and Spanish translators translate "apes" and "swine" [in 5:60] as the same in their respective language [singe and mono] or in a different less derogatory sense.

There is no excuse the OT has similar elements.
I know the evil laden elements in the OT are more and worse than those in the Quran.

Whilst the OT has a lot of evil elements and NT has some, these are somehow muted by the current Jews and the Christians. The NT has an overriding pacifist maxim [love your enemies, give the other cheek, love this and love that] to suppress and control the evil laden elements.

The serious issue with Islam is it plagiarized the evil laden elements from the OT and add its own without any overriding pacifist maxim. These evil laden elements became no-holds-barred and has triggered [also will trigger] SOME Muslims who are born naturally to have evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence.

2. To enable me to argue with Muslims. I believed very much like you do(In regards to the Qur'an being filled with violence)

Surely you were right then and have some intellectual basis to reach that conclusion, i.e. the Quran is filled with violence. I don't believe you were stupid then and understood the evil laden elements wrongly.

What made you change your mind is merely the change in your psychology and not the literal facts of evil laden elements in the Quran. When you switch camp, you have to resort to denial of the intellectual truth to cover for that desperate psychology.

Re 5:60

5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.

5:60 by itself is obviously derogatory and dehumanizing to anyone whether it is in the OT, in the Quran or in any other texts directed at any human being.

Do you agree cursing and condemning other human beings in terms of apes and swine is itself derogatory?