Zakir Naik: In Islam, 2+2=4, others =3, 5 or 6 (scientific, language, verses, hell)

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

"SOME" Muslims are not Islam nor are all Muslims Islam. Islam is what Muslims are guided "to do" and "not to do". Islam is not against anything that is good for human beings (including science). You are measuring Islam with the wrong yardstick.

Wrong conclusion!
Lack of progress is not due to Islam but due to lack of education and knowledge, including the Qur'anic knowledge. I and my family did not make progress in our life but with education.

The first point is a straw man.

Note my hypothesis again;
1. 20% of all Muslims [as with all humans] has active evil tendencies, i.e. the evil prone Muslims.
2. The Quran contain a significant amount of evil laden elements beside the good ones.
3. The evil laden elements in the Quran triggers the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils.

Now where did I ever say or implied your claim, i.e.
"SOME" Muslims are not Islam nor are all Muslims Islam."


I suggest you memorize my hypothesis as it is central to my all my presentations.

For a person to be a Muslim, s/he must adopt Islam with the imperative of entering into a covenant with Allah and thus is subject [within his circumstances] to all the words of Allah within the Quran [only].

Because a Muslim must comply with the words of Allah, all that is in the Quran - inevitable the naturally evil prone will be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence.
Besides the condoning of evil [good to the evil prone], the Quran also contain elements that are anti-progress with what is going on in the non-Muslim world, not Boko Haram anti-education, Malala's shooting and other stupid narrow minded thinking [cultural genocide, etc.] by SOME Muslims.

The BIG mistake with the Quran is it included evil laden elements [DUCK-RABBIT] and Allah cannot appear [because Allah cannot exists as real] to confirm who is right or wrong.

With the explanation of my point which you will note you are using nonsense to counter my point.

You progress with education because you belong the different group of Muslim, but you cannot deny there is a natural percentage of Muslims who read [influenced by] the same Quran as you and act otherwise negatively against progress of mankind.

I disagree. Islam is not against the progress of mankind. It does not tell Muslims not to become scientists, botanists or doctors. In fact, Islam goes further than progress in this world's life. Perhaps like any other ignorant person, you are judging Islam [btw, Continuum meant part not whole] by the actions of some mad men killing innocent people, including Muslims and Muslim children. Over 140 children were killed in Pakistan just because they were children of Pakistan army families. This was not due to the verses of the Qur'an but current politics.

Again you are ignorant of my hypothesis and the reality that emanate from the Quran and Islam with 1.5 billion real humans. Note my hypothesis again;

1. 20% of all Muslims [as with all humans] has active evil tendencies, i.e. the evil prone Muslims; 80% of all Muslims are moderate, with no active evil tendencies
2. The Quran contain a significant amount of evil laden elements [>55%] beside the good ones [low %].
3. The % of evil laden elements in the Quran triggers the % evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils.

You cannot deny the above facts within reality amongst the 1.5 billion Muslims.
IF Islam were to get rid of the >55% of evil laden elements of various degrees which is of no significance to the Purpose of Religion & Spirituality anyway, then no Muslims will be triggered by the texts of Islam to commit terrible evils and violence. This is common logic and sense. In this case the evil prone Muslims will still commit evils and violence but the Quran cannot be blame because it is cleanse of evil laden elements, like Jainism, Buddhism and others.
But the problem is the Quran is the Perfect Revelation of Allah and cannot be changed.

So I am judging Islam based on the above facts.
I have always state it is Islam [in-part, not whole] that is to be blame.
Btw, you are dishonest if you keep accusing of blaming 'Islam' without mentioning I mean only 'part' not whole.

You can't leave your well-being at the mercy of liars and selfish billionaires. That would be disastrous as proved by the attack on Iraq, war in Vietnam, WWI and WWII. All initiated by the politicians.

Did I say that?? Don't put words into my mouth. That is intellectually dishonest.

Fact is, 20% of ALL humans has active evil tendencies and they will commit a range of secular evils, war, pollutions, chasing extreme profits, etc. All these secular evils must be addressed. The good hope of these elements is they are not subjected to any fixed immutable ideologies. They are all human ideologies and acts that are open to change which has been ongoing along with time and circumstances.
The BIG PROBLEM with ISLAM is it is a fixed immutable ideology till eternity solidly embedded in dangerous psychology & emotions, and thus cannot change and adapt fully with change with time & circumstances.

See the Difference!!

Elements in the Qur'an are against initiating war. Elements against war are embedded in the Qur'an. These are justice elements. Had there been no justice elements in the Qur'an, all Muslims would have been dead by now and the world still in the dark ages. Europe did not make progress until Muslims came to Europe. The case against Muslims is not that they have Islam but that they stopped learning and being educated whereas Europe learnt and carried on learning and making progress through education.

DUCK-RABBIT.
I agree there are justice elements in the Quran.
However in the overall context of the Quran there are evil laden elements that tilt more towards evil which triggers the 20% evil prone who are born [unfortunately] with evil tendencies.

Btw, the progress within the Muslim world once upon a time was not due to Islam per-se.
Just like there are a natural percentage [20%] of evil prone, there are a percentage [say 10%] who are highly inclined to education and progress. Regardless of whatever the religion, bad or good circumstances these progress-inclined people will strive to progress because it is in their 'blood'. This progress has no significant contribution from Islam at all.

All have inherited potential to do evil. The Qur'an teaches Muslims to suppress this potential. Defending against war from the enemy is right of every human being. Singling out Islam for defending against attack is nonsense.

I agree the Quran has elements that exhort Muslims to suppress their impulses but within the same "book" it has evil laden elements that influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils. This is a proven fact!

Then you accept that the killing of the right charlies in Paris was justified because of insults on Muslims and their prophet. Yes? If no then wars on Muslims were not justified.

What kind of moral thinking is that? You are insulting my moral competence.

I understand but do not condone tit-for-tat that end up with evils and violence and worse if the evil is influenced and inspired by a God and religion.
The point is Muhammad is the one who first started it all merely based on the experience of altered states of consciousness, then was convinced by others to be a prophet. If Muhammad was sent to see a psychiatrist then, then he would not have insulted the religion of the Quraishi which started the tit-for-that that result in the Charlie-Hebdo barbaric senseless killing merely based on cartoons.

Right from the beginning till the end of the revelation of the Qur'an, did God tell Muslims to initiate war or did God tell Muslims, after 14 years of persecution, to fight in defense?

The Quran did not explicitly exhort Muslims to go to war and kill non-Muslims. But the overall message and verses of the Quran implicitly provide the settings to influence and inspire SOME evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 millions] to commit evils, violence and kill non-Muslims. This point is proven by evidence and fact.

Other than the Quran, history indicated Muhammad was a caravan raider who robbed and stole.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Acquisition of the Holy Land (Israel) is very much a dogmatic approach based on the OT. As for the "majority", your approach to this regard is double standard as you ignore the majority Muslim approach in Islam.

"You undermine your credibility yourself by (a) contradicting yourself and (b) ignoring some verses of the Qur'an on the same issue just to present your preconceived idea."

The reliance on the OT in that case was secondary.
The main reason was a political deliberation by the majority of humanity because the genocide of the 6 million Jews as the last straw culminating from their centuries of persecutions.
That humane consideration was regarded as optimal [balancing pros and cons] given the circumstances at that time.

I make a serious attempt to be objective based on facts.
The point is my starting point is based on facts, e.g. one type of real evil, e.g. [28,844]



There are many other evils by SOME evil prone Muslims not included above.
You on the other hand ignore the facts and its relation to the Quran.

Ignoring 'some' verses?
I am weighing the 3,500 evil laden verses against the some few condition good verses.
Therefore the overall context is evil laden which influenced SOME evil prone Muslims.

Utterly false accusation. All are in response to war on Muslims from non-Muslims. There is absolutely no contempt against non-Muslims who had not waged war on Muslims. Talk is cheap against Muslims and the Qur'an but you won't find even one verse in which contempt against kuffar is not in response to initial contempt against Muslims.

I agree that are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill non-Muslims.

However the culmination of the 3,500 of evil laden verses with contempt directed at the non-Muslims generate an evil ethos that influenced and inspired SOME evil prone to commit real terrible evils. The proofs of this is SO glaring no one can deny.

The general ethos from the Quran is Allah exhort ALL Muslims to defend Islam wherever and whenever Islam is under threat from non-Muslims. This threat is not only pertaining to physical but also mental and ideological threats. The drawings of cartoons is a threat, the criticisms of Islam is a threat because Islam itself is so fragile from its own doing. There are so many threats that are deemed to be against Islam even the very existence of non-Muslims are a threat. This is why there is the term 'Kafir-Harbi' thrown at anyone who make sensitive Muslims uncomfortable in terms of the religion.

Mine is not "cheap talk" but 'expensive' talk based on real evidences of real terrible evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.

Not a fact but a fiction!

There are no "critical evil verses" in the Qur'an but "critical justice verses" in the Qur'an. No verse commands us to do evil. Many command us to do good deeds.

Note my explanation above as supported by evidence of real evils committed evil prone Muslim who are influenced by the critical verses and the whole load of >3,500 evil laden verses in the Quran.

No. You get it wrong again. The 80% Muslims do not ignore any verse but take ALL the verses into account and arrive at the correct conclusion. They do not ignore 60:8-9 but incorporate them both into their overall understanding. Ignore these verses and you lose track of the Qur'an and Islam.

The fact is the evil laden elements [us versus them, dehumanization, contempt, fighting, warring, dominations, etc.] are in the Quran. Note I have done a very detailed analysis of all these evil laden verses.

The fact is the good moderate Muslims because of their inherent personality and trait ignore or are blinded to the evil laden verses.
Note the 500 pound gorilla experiment re "selective attention."

We too read the same verses and do understand them as justice laden elements rather than evil laden elements. Most of the 20% (your figure) evil prone do not even read those verses. The guy in Nice wasn't even religious and it is reported that he had mental problems. He couldn't have been well educated either. I understand there are such people in my community as well. They are mostly failures in education and are social dropouts. To blame their evil actions on Islam or the Qur'an is not a solution but increasing the problem.

Again you are ignorant on this.

There are many within the pool of the 20% evil prone who are very serious scholars and read the Quran and all other texts related to Islam.
They are highly motivated and inspired by these evil laden verses and thus they within a big group collectively generate that evil ethos amongst the group of evil prone Muslims.
This group with the evil ethos will influence individuals Muslims [who had not read the Quran] who are evil prone to align with the evil ethos and leading them to commit terrible evils and violence.

For example, note the Charismatic Anjem Choudary [an expert on the Quran and Ahadith] and his gang who regularly shout "Allahu Akbar" and various verses from the Quran, carrying all sorts of evil posters and all sorts of shouting against non-Muslims in the streets of London. Any new Muslims who are evil prone will be immediately charmed by such an atmosphere because it fit with their evil prone tendencies.

One critical point you are ignorant of human nature is that very serious fundamental existential psychological impulse that drive the majority of human beings to cling to a religion out of very severe subliminal drives.

The analogy to this is like some one drowning in the middle of an ocean and trying to save one self at all costs including to clinging to a straw if there is one floating around.

Once they have a found a belief that give them the existential security, the majority of believers are willing to do what it take to keep that belief as an existential security.
This is why when the ideology or belief contain evil laden elements the evil prone believers will be inclined to commit those evils to feel secure. This is why the Quran made the mistake of including evil laden elements. In contrast the wiser religions understood this danger and do not include leading evil laden elements.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

I agree that are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill non-Muslims.

Thank you. That is almost perfect and honest objective view.

I say almost because you did not say:

I agree that there are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill all non-Muslims.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

Thank you. That is almost perfect and honest objective view.

I say almost because you did not say:

I agree that there are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill all non-Muslims.

That is my intellectual honesty and integrity on being objective based on reading the Quran >50 times at one go.

However] you did not emphasize [nor comment] on what that follow [the indirect exhortations] after this point which is more critical and has greater real impact in influencing and inspiring evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

I agree [there] are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill non-Muslims.

This is the more critical part, i.e. the implicit verses;

However the culmination of the 3,500 of evil laden verses with contempt directed at the non-Muslims generate an evil ethos that influenced and inspired SOME evil prone to commit real terrible evils. The proofs of this is SO glaring no one can deny.

The general ethos from the Quran is Allah exhort ALL Muslims to defend Islam wherever and whenever Islam is under threat from non-Muslims. This threat is not only pertaining to physical but also mental and ideological threats. The drawings of cartoons is a threat, the criticisms of Islam is a threat because Islam itself is so fragile from its own doing. There are so many threats that are deemed to be against Islam even the very existence of non-Muslims are a threat. This is why there is the term 'Kafir-Harbi' thrown at anyone who make sensitive Muslims uncomfortable in terms of the religion.

Mine is not "cheap talk" but 'expensive' talk based on real evidences of real terrible evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.

Note smart evil psychopathic leaders, like Hitler also never give any direct statements to kill the Jews. But eventually 6 millions Jews were killed in WW II.
Smart evil leaders know how to use charismatic speeches highly charged with evil laden elements to influence and inspire their followers to fight and kill 'the other.'
This is how brainwashing works by triggering one natural instinct to fight and kill. [I have done research on this as well]

Whilst the Quran has very strong indirect commands that influenced and inspired SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit evil, what is most problematic is the Ahadith [not for you] leveraged on the indirect commands of Allah to expound the fighting and killing to be direct which is exposed to 85% of the 1.5 billion Muslims. The blame for this still lead back to the evil laden verses in the Quran which should not be a holy book.

[mahasn sawresho]

(Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive (29))
When the sacred months then kill the idolaters wherever ye find and take them and count them and sit you for them all repent, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, then leave their way, God is Forgiving, Merciful (5
This states explicitly killed
What is the difference between fighting and killing
Murder is the logical outcome of the fight
When you meet those who disbelieve, smite the necks
Thy Lord inspired the angels, I am with you Fetbhetwa who believe I will in the hearts of those who disbelieve, smite their horror over the necks and hit them all (12)
Are these the words of peace
Or is it calls for killing and fighting
It is able to Muslims in the world of moderates
And Almtoslim
To say that these verses are not valid
And that Muslims should consider historical Verses
And it works to influence Champions
On the minds of the Muslim people

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

The only dogmatic religion that do not want to align with the overall progress of humanity at present is Islam [by SOME dominant Muslims].

Originally Posted by Khalif

"SOME" Muslims are not Islam nor are all Muslims Islam. Islam is what Muslims are guided "to do" and "not to do". Islam is not against anything that is good for human beings (including science). You are measuring Islam with the wrong yardstick.

Originally Posted by Continuum

Now where did I ever say or implied your claim, i.e.
"SOME" Muslims are not Islam nor are all Muslims Islam."

See "is Islam" stated by you above!

To say that what is done "by SOME dominant Muslims" is Islam is exposing your ignorance about what Islam is.

[Khalif]

Originally Posted by Continuum

That is my intellectual honesty and integrity on being objective based on reading the Quran >50 times at one go.

However] you did not emphasize [nor comment] on what that follow [the indirect exhortations] after this point which is more critical and has greater real impact in influencing and inspiring evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

I agree [there] are no direct explicit verses that exhorted all Muslims to fight and kill non-Muslims.

This is the more critical part, i.e. the implicit verses;

However the culmination of the 3,500 of evil laden verses with contempt directed at the non-Muslims generate an evil ethos that influenced and inspired SOME evil prone to commit real terrible evils. The proofs of this is SO glaring no one can deny.

There are no implicit verses that influence generate evil ethos when all are taken together on any given issue. This is where "SOME evil prone" do not try to understand the Qur'an just like you do not try to understand the Qur'an but you still blame the Qur'an. Both of you lot have same thing in common; ignorance about the Qur'an.

Implication is not in the Qur'an but born in SOME people's mind. There is no such implication in my mind because I studied the Qur'an in depth by taking all the verses on the subject of non-Muslims. It is not even implied that Muslims should kill all non-Muslims. It is not even implied that any Muslim should kill any non-Muslim if the non-Muslim is peaceful and not waging war on Muslims.

The overriding Moral Maxim in the Qur'an is:

Muslims must incline to live in peace with non-Muslims if those non-Muslims incline to live in peace with Muslims. Peace, justice and kindness is the first priority. The wisdom behind it is not only because of humanity in general but because even enemy can become your friend one day. That's what had happened in Mecca 1400 years ago. Umar was once one of the enemies of Muhammad. Khalid bin Waleed did lead the charge on Muslims at Uhad and it was because of him that many Muslims were killed at Uhad. Yet, both of them turned out to be great friends of Muhammad.

[41.34] And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

Verses like this in the Qur'an are not there if other verses imply differently. Verses like 41:34 and 60:8-9 are there so that wrong implication does not get even born in people's minds.

The general ethos from the Quran is Allah exhort ALL Muslims to defend Islam wherever and whenever Islam is under threat from non-Muslims.

There is no threat to Islam without threat to all Muslims. Islam cannot be destroyed unless ALL Muslims are destroyed. The guidance in the Qur'an in situation such as cartoon (mockery) is not to kill them but to move away from them:

[4.140] And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

In such a case, it is not up to Muslims to kill them if they mock but just move away from them and let them do whatever they are doing. Mockery is not a threat; killing Muslims (waging war against Muslims) is the threat.

Mine is not "cheap talk" but 'expensive' talk based on real evidences of real terrible evils committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by evil laden elements in the Quran.

It is cheap talk when you ignore the vast majority of Muslims as the real evidences.

Whilst the Quran has very strong indirect commands that influenced and inspired SOME naturally born evil prone Muslims to commit evil, what is most problematic is the Ahadith [not for you] leveraged on the indirect commands of Allah to expound the fighting and killing to be direct which is exposed to 85% of the 1.5 billion Muslims. The blame for this still lead back to the evil laden verses in the Quran which should not be a holy book.

There are no commands of Allah in the Ahadith except in the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an). There are no indirect commands in the Qur'an from Allah. All Allah's commands in the Qur'an are direct when all are taken together on any one issue. The Qur'an is the whole Qur'an and not only part of it in isolation from the rest of it. Muslims must believe in the whole of it (3:119). One is not a believer if he believes in only part of it and disbelieves in the other part.

The problem is not the Qur'an but some ahadith that are not from Allah or even from the messenger. A lot of crap in ahadith is in contradiction to the commands and guidance in the Qur'an. Ahadith are not Islam but Islam is only from Allah that was completed as a favor and perfected in its laws when 5:3 was revealed. The rest after that, the ahadith, should never have been accepted as Islam.

Yes, ahadith are the problem; not the Qur'an. My Islam is based on the Qur'an and no non-Muslim is in danger from me here in the West or anywhere else (unless I am physical attacked by a non-Muslim first for being a Muslim). Such ifs and buts are not evil elements but justice elements and deterrents to help keep peace.

[mahasn sawresho]

Originally Posted by Khalif

There are no implicit verses that influence generate evil ethos when all are taken together on any given issue. This is where "SOME evil prone" do not try to understand the Qur'an just like you do not try to understand the Qur'an but you still blame the Qur'an. Both of you lot have same thing in common; ignorance about the Qur'an.

Implication is not in the Qur'an but born in SOME people's mind. There is no such implication in my mind because I studied the Qur'an in depth by taking all the verses on the subject of non-Muslims. It is not even implied that Muslims should kill all non-Muslims. It is not even implied that any Muslim should kill any non-Muslim if the non-Muslim is peaceful and not waging war on Muslims.

The overriding Moral Maxim in the Qur'an is:

Muslims must incline to live in peace with non-Muslims if those non-Muslims incline to live in peace with Muslims. Peace, justice and kindness is the first priority. The wisdom behind it is not only because of humanity in general but because even enemy can become your friend one day. That's what had happened in Mecca 1400 years ago. Umar was once one of the enemies of Muhammad. Khalid bin Waleed did lead the charge on Muslims at Uhad and it was because of him that many Muslims were killed at Uhad. Yet, both of them turned out to be great friends of Muhammad.

[41.34] And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

Verses like this in the Qur'an are not there if other verses imply differently. Verses like 41:34 and 60:8-9 are there so that wrong implication does not get even born in people's minds.

There is no threat to Islam without threat to all Muslims. Islam cannot be destroyed unless ALL Muslims are destroyed. The guidance in the Qur'an in situation such as cartoon (mockery) is not to kill them but to move away from them:

[4.140] And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's messages disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

[2.15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

In such a case, it is not up to Muslims to kill them if they mock but just move away from them and let them do whatever they are doing. Mockery is not a threat; killing Muslims (waging war against Muslims) is the threat.

It is cheap talk when you ignore the vast majority of Muslims as the real evidences.

There are no commands of Allah in the Ahadith except in the Hadith of Allah (the Qur'an). There are no indirect commands in the Qur'an from Allah. All Allah's commands in the Qur'an are direct when all are taken together on any one issue. The Qur'an is the whole Qur'an and not only part of it in isolation from the rest of it. Muslims must believe in the whole of it (3:119). One is not a believer if he believes in only part of it and disbelieves in the other part.

What is your opinion in this speech
Is it the words of Mohammed

That is very much what God pairing between prayer and zakat, came in the correct Ibn Umar - God bless them - that the Messenger of Allah - peace be upon him - he said: ordered to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and establish prayer, and pay zakat talk.

[mahasn sawresho]

If the verses of the Koran were dedicated to a single incident and expires the words correctly
But the verses of the Koran are valid in every time and every place
It's a divine standard in a matter of war and peace
Beheadings
Spoils
Prisoners and captives
Laws are valid in every Man, place and not to the one battle as you Tdegue
And you want to camouflage the reality of Islam

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Khalif

See "is Islam" stated by you above!

To say that what is done "by SOME dominant Muslims" is Islam is exposing your ignorance about what Islam is.

I have always asserted and qualified "in part" when attributing blame to Islam. In this case I had omitted to include the qualification, so this is merely an 'omission' and not intended to be generalized.

Correction:
Originally Posted by Continuum:
The only dogmatic religion that do not want to align with the overall progress of humanity at present is Islam {in part} [by SOME dominant Muslims].