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Old 12-29-2016, 02:31 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My point is the Quran cannot claim itself to be a totally good holy book when 55% of its verses contain evil laden elements of various degrees.
The Quran does not claim whether it is a good book or not a good book. It claims to be guidance for Muttaqeen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If Trump were to stand in a Market in Ragga, Karachi, Kabul, and the likes without body guards, he would be torn to pieces immediately.
If Trump were to be Israeli leader, not even one Muslim will stay alive in Gaza or in East Jerusalem. What's your point?
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The Quran does not claim whether it is a good book or not a good book. It claims to be guidance for Muttaqeen.
In this case I am not discussing within the Islam-box but rather it is within the humanity-box of universal human values and morality.

Within human values and morality the definition of what is good, evil is as follows;
Good = any human deed that is net-positive to the well being of the individual and that of humanity and the universe.

Evil = any human deed that is net-negative to the well being of the individual and that of humanity and the universe.
A good holy book will only promote 'good' [as defined above].

A holy book with evil [as defined above] elements is partly evil.

It is a glaring fact that there are SOME [not all] Muslims who are unfortunately born with an active evil tendency and thus are triggered by the much evil laden verses in the Quran, to commit much evils on non-Muslims and even certain Muslims.


Quote:
If Trump were to be Israeli leader, not even one Muslim will stay alive in Gaza or in East Jerusalem. What's your point?
That is your speculation as Trump has not made any such declaration like the Iranians leaders who explicitly stated they want to wipe Israel and Israelist therein off the map.

My point is, the evidences are so clear, any non-Muslims who said any thing negative about Islam is likely to be killed by SOME very zealous Muslims as a duty and to please Allah. The Muslim world had been angered by what Trump has said regarding Muslims visiting to America. In such a case if Trump were to stand alone without body guards in a market square somewhere in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and the likes, he will surely be torn to pieces by a crazy mob. Would you dispute this?

The above is applicable not only to Trump [an example only] but to any one who said [critique] any thing negative about Islam.
The fact that Islam is the only religion where there is so many such incidents is very telling about the nature of the religion. As such it warrant research to find out the root causes of why such things happened.
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:24 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case I am not discussing within the Islam-box but rather it is within the humanity-box of universal human values and morality.

Within human values and morality the definition of what is good, evil is as follows;
Good = any human deed that is net-positive to the well being of the individual and that of humanity and the universe.

Evil = any human deed that is net-negative to the well being of the individual and that of humanity and the universe.
A good holy book will only promote 'good' [as defined above].

A holy book with evil [as defined above] elements is partly evil.
In that case, the Qur'aan does promote human deeds that are net positive to the well being of individuals and that of humanity and the universe. It promotes:

[13.22] And those who are constant, seeking the pleasure of their Lord, and keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them secretly and openly and repel evil with good; as for those, they shall have the (happy) issue of the abode.

[41.34] And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel
(evil) with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

What you are promoting here about the Qur'aan is out of context justice verses that essentially are to be used as a last resort to eradicate evil. The first option is always to repel evil with good as stated in 41:34 above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact that Islam is the only religion where there is so many such incidents is very telling about the nature of the religion. As such it warrant research to find out the root causes of why such things happened.
It is senseless to single out Islam and Muslims when the Christians have fought two major world wars and several crusades against Muslims. Bush was the last one to declare a crusade directed by his God (in his own words) to attack a Muslim country (Iraq).

As for the research you mentioned, you already have drawn the conclusion even before beginning the research. That is working backward to find out something about your own thinking.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In that case, the Qur'aan does promote human deeds that are net positive to the well being of individuals and that of humanity and the universe. It promotes:

[13.22] And those who are constant, seeking the pleasure of their Lord, and keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them secretly and openly and repel evil with good; as for those, they shall have the (happy) issue of the abode.

[41.34] And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel
(evil) with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

What you are promoting here about the Qur'aan is out of context justice verses that essentially are to be used as a last resort to eradicate evil. The first option is always to repel evil with good as stated in 41:34 above.
I understand there are positive elements from the Quran [I have a compilation of them] but such verses are overwhelmed and dominated by the evil elements in the Quran that influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit evils and violence that are net negative to the well being of the individual and humanity.

The evidence of evils and terrors by SOME Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran is so glaring.
The whole humanity is at present living under the atmosphere of threats from Islam [partly] and SOME Muslim.
There is no possibility of such a threat being stopped by any one on Earth on a religious basis because only Allah can decide and judge them. Humans may be able to physically stopped them but because the ideology is eternal the evil therefrom will emerged whenever any weaknesses and opportunity for these SOME Muslims to take advantage of it to please Allah so that they can go to Paradise.

Quote:
It is senseless to single out Islam and Muslims when the Christians have fought two major world wars and several crusades against Muslims. Bush was the last one to declare a crusade directed by his God (in his own words) to attack a Muslim country (Iraq).

As for the research you mentioned, you already have drawn the conclusion even before beginning the research. That is working backward to find out something about your own thinking.
Note we have discussed this before.
Any Christians who had commit any evils and violence will be rebuked 'screwed' by God with;
"Who the hell told you to kill your enemies, I told you to love your enemies, etc. You will be punished for that sin!"
What I have done is a typical Problem Solving Technique, i.e. from REAL EXPERIENCES of a human problem, i.e. the evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims influenced by Islam in part. This problem is so obvious but most are unable to nail the root causes due to evasions by most Muslims and
Muslim apologists;

The Generic Process of any Problem Solving Technique is;
1. Recognize the Problem;
2. Define the Problem
3. Analyze and find the ultimate root causes.
4. Understand the mechanics of the root causes to their effects.
5. Establish alternative solutions
6. Select the most effective solutions
7. Implement solutions
8. Monitor and control the process.
I offer no excuses as what I have done is to follow the universal approach.
What I have done so far is procedures 1-4.

Note I am an expert in Problem Solving Techniques as part of my career. Not so active at present but nevertheless is applying my expertise to this problem of evil and violence by SOME Muslims.

What you and most Muslims are doing are like ostriches and pretending there is no problem and no root causes.
If you do not apply the above procedures of problem solving to the glaring evidence of evils and violence from SOME Muslims, the problems will continue to emerge eternally. In this case you and others are indirectly complicit to the emergence of such evils and violence.

The 'Backward to Root Causes' is the most common and the default approach to find solutions to most human problems because the problems existed and had happened in the past and thus we have to start from the existing problems.
So what is wrong with my method?

The other is speculative and preventive approach to prevent problems that has never happened before and are likely to happen. This is not applicable to the existing evils and violence that is ongoing which has happened since Islam started and will go on in the future.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:01 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand there are positive elements from the Quran [I have a compilation of them] but such verses are overwhelmed and dominated by the evil elements in the Quran that influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit evils and violence that are net negative to the well being of the individual and humanity.
The positive elements are dominating elements. Only those will commit evil who ignore those positive elements in the Qur'aan.

Your imagined evil elements are not "net-negative elements" in the Qur'aan. Such elements are in effect justice laden elements designed to eliminate evil whenever such evil is not eliminated by the good. You can't understand that but the majority Muslims do understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The evidence of evils and terrors by SOME Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran is so glaring.
The evidence of good manners and actions of MAJORITY Muslims who are inspired by the Qur'aan is so glaring to those who are not blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The whole humanity is at present living under the atmosphere of threats from Islam [partly] and SOME Muslim.
ALL Muslims are under the atmosphere of threats. Islam of peaceful Muslims has been blamed by the politicians, the western media and the infidels in general when they don't even understand the meanings of "Islam", "Islamic" and "jihad". They talk about Islam in ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is no possibility of such a threat being stopped by any one on Earth on a religious basis because only Allah can decide and judge them.
As long as the ignorant ones keep telling these people that they are "Muslims", "Islamic" and their actions are "Islamic", there is no hope that they will ever stop. That's the main reason. When we say they are not Muslim, you shout, "who the hell are to decide". When we say, "their actions are not Islamic", you shout, "who the hell are you to decide when they and we say that their actions are Islamic". As you are on their side, don't blame peaceful Muslims for being influenced by the positive Qur'aan. You sow so shall you reap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Humans may be able to physically stopped them but because the ideology is eternal the evil therefrom will emerged whenever any weaknesses and opportunity for these SOME Muslims to take advantage of it to please Allah so that they can go to Paradise.
And you agree with them in ignorance that they are going to paradise. You are aiding and abetting in their crimes. They are influenced by the actions of the infidels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note we have discussed this before.
Yes, we have discussed this before but you keep parroting the same thing again and again. ALLAHU AKBAR (I am sure all of you by now the meaning of it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Any Christians who had commit any evils and violence will be rebuked 'screwed' by God with;
"Who the hell told you to kill your enemies, I told you to love your enemies, etc. You will be punished for that sin!"
God of Bush never rebuked him but told him to commit evil and violence in Iraq. Did he go in there to love his enemies with laser-guided love?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What I have done is a typical Problem Solving Technique, i.e. from REAL EXPERIENCES of a human problem, i.e. the evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims influenced by Islam in part.
You have done a very poor job in problem solving. You have told peaceful Muslims that their holy book is promoting evil and violence called "jihad" against peaceful infidels.

You are not solving the problem, you ARE a part of the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This problem is so obvious but most are unable to nail the root causes due to evasions by most Muslims and
Muslim apologists;
See what I mean; it is the peaceful Muslims who are the real problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I am an expert in Problem Solving Techniques as part of my career.
What's your name? The whole infidel world needs to know your problem solving techniques urgently. Send a text to Trump right now. Terrorism will be eliminated in no time when all the Qur'aan copies are destroyed. What a brilliant problem solving mind!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Not so active at present but nevertheless is applying my expertise to this problem of evil and violence by SOME Muslims.
You should have stood in US presidential election.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What you and most Muslims are doing are like ostriches and pretending there is no problem and no root causes.
Each time you blame peaceful Muslims and their holy book, you are losing time to solve the problem. What a waste of time! Barking up a wrong tree is never going to solve any problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you do not apply the above procedures of problem solving to the glaring evidence of evils and violence from SOME Muslims, the problems will continue to emerge eternally. In this case you and others are indirectly complicit to the emergence of such evils and violence.
What a brilliant problem solving technique; if you can't stop criminals, blame the peaceful Muslims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The 'Backward to Root Causes' is the most common and the default approach to find solutions to most human problems because the problems existed and had happened in the past and thus we have to start from the existing problems.
So what is wrong with my method?
Come back again and ask me the same question when you are sober. Only then you would understand my answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The other is speculative and preventive approach to prevent problems that has never happened before and are likely to happen. This is not applicable to the existing evils and violence that is ongoing which has happened since Islam started and will go on in the future.
This is obviously the same Islam-hating mentality of over 1400 ago, emerging once again. They too had hated the Qur'aan and had tried to change it.

[10.15] And when Our clear verses are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Qur'an other than this or change it...
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:38 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 710,653 times
Reputation: 1196
Salaam aleykoum

[27:15] We endowed David and Solomon with knowledge, and they said, "Praise God for blessing us more than many of His believing servants."

[27:16] Solomon was David's heir. He said, "O people, we have been endowed with understanding the language of the birds, and all kinds of things have been bestowed upon us. This is indeed a real blessing."

[27:17] Mobilized in the service of Solomon were his obedient soldiers of jinns and humans, as well as the birds; all at his disposal.

[27:18] When they approached the valley of the ants, one ant said, "O you ants, go into your homes, lest you get crushed by Solomon and his soldiers, without perceiving."

[27:19] He smiled and laughed at her statement, and said, "My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants."

[27:20] He inspected the birds, and noted: "Why do I not see the hoopoe? Why is he missing?

[27:21] "I will punish him severely or sacrifice him, unless he gives me a good excuse."

[27:22] He did not wait for long. The hoopoe said, "I have news that you do not have. I brought to you from Sheba, some important information.

[27:23] "I found a woman ruling them, who is blessed with everything, and possesses a tremendous palace.

[27:24] "I found her and her people prostrating before the sun, instead of God. The devil has adorned their works in their eyes, and has repulsed them from the path; consequently, they are not guided."

[27:25] They should have been prostrating before God, the One who manifests all the mysteries in the heavens and the earth, and the One who knows everything you conceal and everything you declare.

[27:26] God ! There is no other god beside Him; the Lord with the great dominion.

[27:27] Solomon said, "We will see if you told the truth, or if you are a liar.

[27:28] "Take this letter from me, give it to them, then watch for their response."

Back in Sheba
[27:29] She said, "O my advisers, I have received an honorable letter.

[27:30] "It is from Solomon, and it is, 'In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.'

[27:31] "Proclaiming: 'Do not be arrogant; come to me as submitters.'"

[27:32] She said, "O my advisers, counsel me in this matter. I am not deciding anything until you advise me."

[27:33] They said, "We possess the power, we possess the fighting skills, and the ultimate command is in your hand. You decide what to do."

[27:34] She said, "The kings corrupt any land they invade, and subjugate its dignified people. This is what they usually do.

[27:35] "I am sending a gift to them; let us see what the messengers come back with."

[27:36] When the hoopoe returned to Solomon (he told him the news), and he responded (to Sheba's people): "Are you giving me money? What God has given me is far better than what He has given you. You are the ones to rejoice in such gifts."

[27:37] (To the hoopoe, he said,) "Go back to them and let them know that we will come to them with forces they cannot imagine. We will evict them, humiliated and debased."
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The positive elements are dominating elements. Only those will commit evil who ignore those positive elements in the Qur'aan.

Your imagined evil elements are not "net-negative elements" in the Qur'aan. Such elements are in effect justice laden elements designed to eliminate evil whenever such evil is not eliminated by the good. You can't understand that but the majority Muslims do understand it.

The evidence of good manners and actions of MAJORITY Muslims who are inspired by the Qur'aan is so glaring to those who are not blind.

ALL Muslims are under the atmosphere of threats. Islam of peaceful Muslims has been blamed by the politicians, the western media and the infidels in general when they don't even understand the meanings of "Islam", "Islamic" and "jihad". They talk about Islam in ignorance.

As long as the ignorant ones keep telling these people that they are "Muslims", "Islamic" and their actions are "Islamic", there is no hope that they will ever stop. That's the main reason. When we say they are not Muslim, you shout, "who the hell are to decide". When we say, "their actions are not Islamic", you shout, "who the hell are you to decide when they and we say that their actions are Islamic". As you are on their side, don't blame peaceful Muslims for being influenced by the positive Qur'aan. You sow so shall you reap.

And you agree with them in ignorance that they are going to paradise. You are aiding and abetting in their crimes. They are influenced by the actions of the infidels.

Yes, we have discussed this before but you keep parroting the same thing again and again. ALLAHU AKBAR (I am sure all of you by now the meaning of it).

God of Bush never rebuked him but told him to commit evil and violence in Iraq. Did he go in there to love his enemies with laser-guided love?

You have done a very poor job in problem solving. You have told peaceful Muslims that their holy book is promoting evil and violence called "jihad" against peaceful infidels.

You are not solving the problem, you ARE a part of the problem.

See what I mean; it is the peaceful Muslims who are the real problem.

What's your name? The whole infidel world needs to know your problem solving techniques urgently. Send a text to Trump right now. Terrorism will be eliminated in no time when all the Qur'aan copies are destroyed. What a brilliant problem solving mind!

You should have stood in US presidential election.

Each time you blame peaceful Muslims and their holy book, you are losing time to solve the problem. What a waste of time! Barking up a wrong tree is never going to solve any problem.

What a brilliant problem solving technique; if you can't stop criminals, blame the peaceful Muslims.

Come back again and ask me the same question when you are sober. Only then you would understand my answer.

This is obviously the same Islam-hating mentality of over 1400 ago, emerging once again. They too had hated the Qur'aan and had tried to change it.

[10.15] And when Our clear verses are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Qur'an other than this or change it...
With your above sort of unbalanced replies, looks like you are the one who need sobering up.
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