New School Open Enrollment Law (magnet schools, income, income tax)
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Anything national will be a disaster, look at common core, healthcare. Just let the school districts run as they see fit
I am assuming that you do not have much faith in the common core. My main question is: have you read through the common core? The CC is a set of standards -- students that reach grade X should be able to do Y and Z. How they attain that knowledge/skill -- i.e. the actual curriculum -- is left to the teachers. A lot of the negative comments I see regarding CC reflects a general misconception that somehow the common core dictates that teachers change their curriculum and start teaching things in what most would consider an "awful and stupid" way. The reality is that many of the current teachers (in particular math) are simply not qualified to re-write their curriculum to meet the standards specified in the CC. So instead, they look to materials from for-profit companies who end up creating curriculum that is either full of errors, or does not clearly explain the lessons. The problem is with these for-profit companies trying to cash in on what is essentially a void (insofar as good curriculum, that would satisfy the CC, is concerned). I'm sure you've seen plenty of bad examples on social media.
Schools responsible for small children and learning function much better if there is local say.
Educated taxpayers gravitate to towns with strong school district.
State school system dumbs down the best schools and results in mediocre to poor schools.
Then, property values decline in the best school districts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
You and others here have no history in SJC/Florida. It wasn't so long ago here - and it might even be possible today - for elected school board members to believe in creationism - and to demand that it be taught to the exclusion of Darwin/evolution. Or for various books to be banned in libraries. That kind of thing.
All of you are coming here from the NE US with no idea of what NE Florida is or was. In terms of things like religion and racism/segregation and the like. All you read is SJC is the #1 school district here - so you move here. Even if SJC moves into the 20th - much less the 21st century - there will be other counties in Florida that are left behind. That's why we need statewide control and standards. Robyn
I've only lived in Jax for 30 years, so the creationism issue was likely before my time. However, I do remember the segregation issues. We had forced busing, and the creation of magnet schools was a compromise to forced busing. Anyway, snuffybear's first two points are pretty matter-of-fact in my opinion:
"Schools responsible for small children and learning function much better if there is local say.
Educated taxpayers gravitate to towns with strong school district."
When I went to Stanton, NW SJC did not exist (JCP was basically rural land). So the (few) good schools were in fact in Duval county. It was very clear that every parent wanted their kid to go to Stanton (regardless of their child's ability). So while Duval was no exemplary school district, it was clear where parents wanted to send their kids. Despite kids being bused from afar to Stanton, the community was "local" in the sense that most families who had kids attending Stanton gave the school a lot of support as if it actually were a regular local high school. It was much closer to what high school was like well before my time (in terms of community). We had lots of clubs and students would drive (or have their parents drive) all over town so that we could get together to practice, prep., study, etc.
There was a cost, however. There were plenty of articles on how Stanton was a "brain drain" on all the other high schools because it recruited from the top of the top of each high school. And unfortunately, Stanton's presence in the worst area of town did nothing to improve the surrounding neighborhoods (at least not during my tenure there).
As for his later two points:
"State school system dumbs down the best schools and results in mediocre to poor schools.
Then, property values decline in the best school districts."
I partly disagree here. I don't think it dumbs down the best schools, nor do I think it will cause a decline in property values in the best school districts. If anything, I think it makes the best schools even better (think about the type of parents/kids -- and their motive -- who are going out of their way to attend these non-district schools), and stabilizes the property values since the only sure way of getting into the good schools is to have an address in the proper district. That said, it WILL (in my opinion) dumb down the already poor-performing schools (as those very few, poor parents who would sacrifice all just to get their kids out to the better schools) and dumb down the currently-decent schools (where parents with slightly better financial situations may choose to send their kids to even better schools). So in this sense, most of the Duval schools have more to lose than the good schools in SJC.
If you really want to resolve the issue with education, fix it at the root of the problem. Fix the currently poor-performing schools. Have programs that will facilitate the building of a stronger community around the school. Make it so the locals are less likely to move their kids to another school -- hire teachers who actually have specialization in the subject area they are going to teach (not some generic education degree) and pay them decently so they don't spend their own pocket money for supplies and so they have a financial incentive to stay and teach at these poor performing schools. The combination of a strong community that supports its teachers and well-trained teachers with proper formal education in their subject areas is (in my humble opinion) the only way you're going to fix the root of the problem.
I see what you're saying on those last two points. But my concern is that, say Nease or PVHS will attract people living in nearby areas (if you live in Jax Beach, why go to Fletcher when you can now go to PVHS?; or if you live in Duval section of Nocatee, why go to the Duval HS when you can go to Nease?).
And, you will have athletes coming just for sports, which makes it harder for those actually living in the town to play sports at their zoned HS. The HS teams become practically professional -- which is, in MY opinion, not good for HIGH SCHOOL sports which should be about scholar-athletes, not just playing to "WIN".
Also, as the high schools get bigger and population shifts a bit, Bolles and Episcopal will get more applicants from the wealthier families that can afford it, I think.
Agree with your thoughts on how to fix the problem.
I see what you're saying on those last two points. But my concern is that, say Nease or PVHS will attract people living in nearby areas (if you live in Jax Beach, why go to Fletcher when you can now go to PVHS?; or if you live in Duval section of Nocatee, why go to the Duval HS when you can go to Nease?).
And, you will have athletes coming just for sports, which makes it harder for those actually living in the town to play sports at their zoned HS. The HS teams become practically professional -- which is, in MY opinion, not good for HIGH SCHOOL sports which should be about scholar-athletes, not just playing to "WIN".
Also, as the high schools get bigger and population shifts a bit, Bolles and Episcopal will get more applicants from the wealthier families that can afford it, I think.
Agree with your thoughts on how to fix the problem.
Most of the established schools (i.e. the ones that have been in existence for a while) in SJC tend to be at or over capacity (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I do not know the specifics for Nease or PVHS, but I would imagine that they probably cannot take on too many non-district students even if there is a significant number of Duval families wanting their kids to go there. Is this not the case?
I too worry about the high school sports. I know for a fact that in college sports, the athletic departments tend to have a significant sway over the administration. I don't see high schools as being particularly immune to this problem. So while open enrollment is supposed to be based on lottery, I cannot help but suspect that may not be the case -- especially at schools that, in addition to a strong academic program, also has strong athletic programs.
You are correct. They are basically the equivalent of an "anchor baby". Once a student is able to enroll at a particular school, they can stay there until they reach the highest grade level offered at that school. Capacity cashamsity, it doesn't matter.They will teach classes in the parking lot before anyone is ever kicked out.
"Anchor baby". Good analogy IMO (although I can't rep you again for a while). Robyn
I am assuming that you do not have much faith in the common core. My main question is: have you read through the common core? The CC is a set of standards -- students that reach grade X should be able to do Y and Z. How they attain that knowledge/skill -- i.e. the actual curriculum -- is left to the teachers. A lot of the negative comments I see regarding CC reflects a general misconception that somehow the common core dictates that teachers change their curriculum and start teaching things in what most would consider an "awful and stupid" way. The reality is that many of the current teachers (in particular math) are simply not qualified to re-write their curriculum to meet the standards specified in the CC. So instead, they look to materials from for-profit companies who end up creating curriculum that is either full of errors, or does not clearly explain the lessons. The problem is with these for-profit companies trying to cash in on what is essentially a void (insofar as good curriculum, that would satisfy the CC, is concerned). I'm sure you've seen plenty of bad examples on social media.
I think it is even worse than that. After my husband retired - he took a ton of (mostly advanced) math courses at UNF. Just for fun. He even wound up being inducted into the math honor society when he was about 60 . He ran across some education majors during the course of his studies (although not in his math courses). And talked to some of his professors about them. These 20 something future teachers couldn't for the most part even wrap their heads around what I think of as basic 4th-5th grade algebra word problems (if a train is going 60 miles an hour and 2 stations are 300 miles apart - how long will it take for the train to get from one station to the other). It's really quite pathetic.
OTOH - it is understandable. Intelligent women often didn't have any job options other than teaching (or perhaps something like nursing) in the past. Today they do. And they tend to get into those other (more well paid) options. Robyn
I've only lived in Jax for 30 years, so the creationism issue was likely before my time. However, I do remember the segregation issues. We had forced busing, and the creation of magnet schools was a compromise to forced busing. Anyway, snuffybear's first two points are pretty matter-of-fact in my opinion:
"Schools responsible for small children and learning function much better if there is local say.
Educated taxpayers gravitate to towns with strong school district."
When I went to Stanton, NW SJC did not exist (JCP was basically rural land). So the (few) good schools were in fact in Duval county. It was very clear that every parent wanted their kid to go to Stanton (regardless of their child's ability). So while Duval was no exemplary school district, it was clear where parents wanted to send their kids. Despite kids being bused from afar to Stanton, the community was "local" in the sense that most families who had kids attending Stanton gave the school a lot of support as if it actually were a regular local high school. It was much closer to what high school was like well before my time (in terms of community). We had lots of clubs and students would drive (or have their parents drive) all over town so that we could get together to practice, prep., study, etc.
There was a cost, however. There were plenty of articles on how Stanton was a "brain drain" on all the other high schools because it recruited from the top of the top of each high school. And unfortunately, Stanton's presence in the worst area of town did nothing to improve the surrounding neighborhoods (at least not during my tenure there).
As for his later two points:
"State school system dumbs down the best schools and results in mediocre to poor schools.
Then, property values decline in the best school districts."
I partly disagree here. I don't think it dumbs down the best schools, nor do I think it will cause a decline in property values in the best school districts. If anything, I think it makes the best schools even better (think about the type of parents/kids -- and their motive -- who are going out of their way to attend these non-district schools), and stabilizes the property values since the only sure way of getting into the good schools is to have an address in the proper district. That said, it WILL (in my opinion) dumb down the already poor-performing schools (as those very few, poor parents who would sacrifice all just to get their kids out to the better schools) and dumb down the currently-decent schools (where parents with slightly better financial situations may choose to send their kids to even better schools). So in this sense, most of the Duval schools have more to lose than the good schools in SJC.
If you really want to resolve the issue with education, fix it at the root of the problem. Fix the currently poor-performing schools. Have programs that will facilitate the building of a stronger community around the school. Make it so the locals are less likely to move their kids to another school -- hire teachers who actually have specialization in the subject area they are going to teach (not some generic education degree) and pay them decently so they don't spend their own pocket money for supplies and so they have a financial incentive to stay and teach at these poor performing schools. The combination of a strong community that supports its teachers and well-trained teachers with proper formal education in their subject areas is (in my humble opinion) the only way you're going to fix the root of the problem.
We've had creationism people here in SJC since I moved here 20+ years ago. Including some politicians. It's just not an important part of their political platforms (which tend to center more on abortion stuff).
First time I was ever here in the JAX area was 45 years ago (I took the Florida Bar exam here in 1971). At that time - there was basically nothing in SJC. It was totally rural.
I kind of agree with you about the history of segregation here.
OTOH - I disagree about some of your proposed fixes. I think any kid whose parent cares enough to drive his/her kid(s) to a good school deserves a chance to attend that school. Whether it's a parent in SJC driving a kid to a school like Stanton in Duval County - or a parent in Duval County driving a kid to a plain old school in SJC. I pay property taxes to the State of Florida - not to SJC. And want to see kids in this general area getting the best educations possible. Robyn
I'll pass this information on to my son and DIL who are expecting their first child in a month or so. They live in Jacksonville Beach.
Hi Lenora (Lenora and I know one another from the Retirement Forum). I've heard that the elementary and middle schools in JAX Beach are highly thought of/rated. But who knows how things will be when that new born is ready for school? Best for your kids to keep on top of things. Robyn
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. He ran across some education majors during the course of his studies (although not in his math courses). And talked to some of his professors about them. These 20 something future teachers couldn't for the most part even wrap their heads around what I think of as basic 4th-5th grade algebra word problems (if a train is going 60 miles an hour and 2 stations are 300 miles apart - how long will it take for the train to get from one station to the other). It's really quite pathetic.
