Street Car & Commuter Rail in Jax SOON! (Jacksonville, Orange Park: transfer to, to live)

[fsu813]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

How often do you go to Miami? Would you ever take a train from downtown JAX to downtown MIA? The way I look at it - I might save an hour - perhaps two if I'm stretching it - on a 5 hour drive. Train would probably cost $200+ RT for 2 people. Gas for car costs about $100 RT. And when I got to MIA - I'd have to rent a car - at a cost of perhaps $30-50/day. Pick-up - drop off the car - deal with luggage - etc. Kind of a PITA.

So would you - or anyone else here - be a customer? Robyn

I have friends in Miami. If I could take a 3 1/2 trip to MIA, have them scoop me up when I arrive,....i'd be there once a month!

My brother goes to grad school in orlando. He'd much rather take a train nack & forth to Jac & orlando than have to drive.

Lots of Jax people do business in MIA, Orlando.

It would get utilized - the extent of which would be dtermined by (a) the cost and (b) what it connects to once it arrives in town.

Hence, it's important for Jax to cacth up to it's peers and implement the 2030 Mobility plan as soon as possible.

[FlyiMetro]

Jacksonville has many projects in works, I am curious which ones will come to light.

[FlyiMetro]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

I'm late (very) in joining the thread but wanted to add that rather than throw hundreds of millions of dollars into rail infrastructure, cities such as Jacksonville would benefit more from Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) versus shiny new rail systems, which offer far less flexibility in terms of proposed routes and higher cost-to-use ratios. Bus rapid transit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buses??? Noooooo! Not sexy, Not Modern, just yucky.

[Robyn55]

Originally Posted by FlyiMetro

Buses??? Noooooo! Not sexy, Not Modern, just yucky.

But affordable. I think most governments at all levels will have big problems in the next couple of years just paying their bills for basic things like teachers and fire fighters (and their health insurance and pensions). Not much room in budgets for "Big Dig" types of projects. Robyn

[jsimms3]

The purpose of rail is not just to provide an alternative, but since it is fixed it spurs massive economic development. Cities that have invested in rail (even little Little Rock, AR) have seen billions of dollars each in new developments around the rail and spurred on by the rail. These developments are high density, mixed use, TODs that significantly boost the tax base. Rail, more than BRT, also shows comanies and citizens the city is willing to invest in itself and to provide a productive cosmopolitan environment for a young professional workforce.

In addition to this, it is far easier to get people out of their comfortable cars into a train where public perception is much better. Commuter bus is different from BRT, so I cannot compare ridership of those two equally, but ridership on BRT is always fairly low because most people see no difference between a fancy looking bus and a traditional looking bus. They are both busses, and both come with all those connotations.

And because a BRT is not on a permanent track, developers and investors have no incentive to "invest" in TODs. The route could change more easily and less people will ride anyway since it's still a bus.

And many BRTs aren't significantly cheaper than rail. ROW still usually has to be purchased, repaving of streets is necessary to separate bus lanes from car lanes, and sometimes fixed guideways still have to be built to take the bus out of traffic.

I would rather the city spend money (which most of it comes from the feds anyways) on fixed rail, because I have seen enough evidence and research indicating the ROIC on rail versus bus. On average a new road is still 40% subsidized and rail systems range from 50% to 80% subsidized. Bottom line is roads aren't as free as people think, and rail spurs the kind of smart development we are trying to go for.

To an extent I think commuter rail is a waste in a city like Jacksonville and HSR is a complete waste for the state for now (maybe if and when it becomes cheaper). I am a big proponent of light rail and streetcars. If heavy rail were cheaper then I would be a fan of that, too.

[KerryB]

Originally Posted by Robyn55

But affordable. I think most governments at all levels will have big problems in the next couple of years just paying their bills for basic things like teachers and fire fighters (and their health insurance and pensions). Not much room in budgets for "Big Dig" types of projects. Robyn

Understandable, but really this is something cities can't afford NOT to do. Its an investment in infrastructure, sustainability & future growth, not just for each city but for the entire country. We're SORELY lagging behind with this compared to many other countries. It would be laughable if it wasn't so damn tragic. We've really screwed ourselves into being slaves for our cars here. Not to mention the rate of accidents, deaths, etc that could be avoided if we get less people driving. We shouldn't have to risk our/our family's lives everyday with a bunch of other cars on the road who are being driven by God knows who. We've basically fixed it so almost everyone HAS to have a license & HAS to drive a car. Its a ridiculous racket that needs to be lessened.

Plus, other cities (some much smaller than Jax) are getting their acts together with this, so you have to stay attractive & competitive. I know if it were me personally & it came down to moving to a city that had decent transportation/was more urbanized/less car-reliant, and moving to a city like Jax that wasn't any of those things, I'd choose the former. Can't imagine I'm the only person who feels this way, esp within the younger generation of professionals.

About buses. Look, they have their place, but they're a pisspoor alternative to any REAL mode of public transportation. They're unreliable & hardly ever on time (since they share the road with cars), they're slow, they don't spur any type of development along the routes like a permanent rail line would, inefficient on fuel, loud & an eye-sore. If you've ever had to rely on one (something tells me you haven't had to) you'd know how sucky they are.

Buses are good as a secondary mode of transport to connect those who aren't within walking distance to a primary rail line. Anything else is trying to get them to do things that they just aren't good at. Any decent city knows this & plans accordingly. Apparently Jax & a bunch of other southern cities didn't get that memo. Or they got it years ago, threw it in the garbage & just ignored it.

[Robyn55]

Haven't used a bus on a regular basis since I was a student. A long time ago. Even if I agreed with you in general about transit and infrastructure (I am pretty negative about rail in JAX - but wouldn't rule out the possibility of new systems working elsewhere) - the simple fact of the matter is we - as a country - blew it. We had decades of "fat years". And instead of saving and investing in worthwhile things and projects - we consumed a lot of stuff we couldn't afford - often on credit (at both the individual and the public level). (As one pundit said - people felt entitled to borrow money to buy things they couldn't afford and frequently didn't need.) We made promises to pay all kinds of money in the future - with no idea where it would come from.

Now we're in "lean years" - and the pigeons are coming home to roost. It's unfortunate IMO - but it's the way things are. Robyn

[fsu813]

Alvin Brown's team suggests trolley system in downtown Jacksonville
Alvin Brown's team suggests trolley system in downtown Jacksonville | jacksonville.com


Yup, it's still on track. Just as someone said it would be when they started this thread many months ago.

[madcapmagishion]

I would love to see commuter rail lines started to/from St Augustine, Macclenny, Fernandina, Callahan, Yulee, and maybe even as far away as Folkston, Lake City and Palm Coast. The tracks already there all that's needed is some cars and engines, and some stations to be built... A typical line could be Lake City/Macclenny/Baldwin/Whitehouse/Marrieta/Edgewood/Jax Station or Palm Coast/St Augustine/Palencia/Nocatee/Bayard/Baymeadows/Jax Station. Something like this would be easily doable with the proper backing and funding. This along with the street car/Trolleys lines feeding off of Jax Station all over downtown Jax would be a great alternative to auto commuting. IMO

[fsquid]

would be great, however, I see nothing new in the article that FSU linked. Just that the team is still "considering it". Let me know when they break ground and I'll believe.