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so pruz, what you state is not the case.
what tff states is the case.
yes, the orthodox rabbis i asked did advise me to try to talk him out of the marriage.
yes, my grandchildren will be baptized. that is a fact even before the wedding. it was a condition of her agreeing to marriage, that any children they might have will be raised Catholic.
yes i see it as the death of Judaism in my family because I literally am the only one in my family, in my mother's family, in my grandmother's family, who is seeking to live a Jewish life. I do see it as a cause for upset. Most of my relatives died in the Holocaust. Not just my relatives, but millions of Jews throughout history died simply so I could live my life as a Jew. That more than anything motivates me to at my late age (in my 50s) to try and learn how to be an observant Jew.
The sages I read and respect, the Rabbis I study and respect, my own Rebbe from the 1800s (i am chassidic), all say the same thing and that is the simple plain truth of what keeps Judaism alive: don't assimilate. I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
if you are going to pull rank (yet again, over and over and over) and try to impress us with your education. lineage, and standing i am going to point out that you do not act in ways that merit respect. I am tired of listening to you bully people. it is not befitting of the child of a King.
If we go back to your original post, this is an outcome YOU created. He was brought up as a non-Jew and that's the path he is on. He is not going to change the path you instilled in him for over 20 years, when you've been on a different path for only the last 8 years. Instead of taking the time to learn the basics of Judaism, You've jumped into the learned already level and is working backwards. Sorry, but one does not start with the answer to learn what the question is.
If we go back to your original post, THIS is an outcome you created. He was brought up as a non-Jew and that's the path he is on. He is not going to change the path you instilled in him for over 20 years, when you've been on a different path for only the last 8 years. Instead of taking the time to learn the basics of Judaism, You've jumped into the learned already level and is working backwards. Sorry, but one does not start with the answer to learn what the question is.
let's go back further, it is the outcome my mother created when she married a non-Jew and did not ever tell me growing up that I was Jewish. truly it is the sins of the fathers being visited upon me. i am upset with her for never telling me I was Jewish, and for raising me to believe that people who are religious are not only stupid and ignorant, but mentally ill. It has taken me decades to heal and un-learn the deception I was fed.
or we can go further back to the Haskalah movement in Europe (my grandparents were from Germany) that sought to earn the respect of European society by mimicking secular ways.
what is happening is exactly what chassidic rebbes predicted would happen, and that is when Jews discard Torah and seek instead to mimic whatever society we are living in in the Diaspora, that it is the death knell for Judaism. they were right and the course of my family in a very short time proves it.
i accept my son's decision, and he knows i support him in finding his own path and his own happiness. I trust Hashem to look after him. and i am asking my son to accept my decision to not attend his wedding. i can feel at a very deep level what the sages were talking about, we earn not only peace of mind but respect when we act like Jews, not when we try to mimic secular ways.
[Glossary: Haskalah - movement among European Jews in the 18th–19th centuries that pressed for integration into European society
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-07-2015 at 04:31 PM..
let's go back further, it is the outcome my mother created when she married a non-Jew and did not ever tell me growing up that I was Jewish. truly it is the sins of the fathers being visited upon me. i am upset with her for never telling me I was Jewish, and for raising me to believe that people who are religious are not only stupid and ignorant, but mentally ill. It has taken me decades to heal and un-learn the deception I was fed.
or we can go further back to the Haskalah movement in Europe that sought to earn the respect of European society by mimicking secular ways.
what is happening is exactly what chassidic rebbes predicted would happen, and that is when Jews seek to integrate into whatever society we are living in in the Diaspora, that it is the death knell for Judaism. they were right and the course of my family in a very short time proves it.
i accept my son's decision, and he knows i support him in finding his own path and his own happiness. I trust Hashem to look after him. and i am asking my son to accept my decision to not attend his wedding. i can feel at a very deep level what the sages were talking about, we earn not only peace of mind but respect when we act like Jews, not when we try to mimic secular ways.
Let's not. Past 18 it was on you to learn what is the truth. Stop blaming the past.
Your Mom had reasons why she didn't tell you the family secret why she was Jewish.
As a family fleeing Nazi Germany (which they were, my mom was age 7 when they fled to USA from Danzig around 1937) yes many Jews hid their Jewishness so that they would not be killed. Literally it was a matter of life and death. That is a valid reason.
But when I started asking and wanting to learn and taking classes about the Holocaust, withholding information from your children deliberately is not a good reason. I remember asking about God and wanting to pray and was ridiculed for it. Someone gave me a bible which I had to hide and read in secret or I would have been mocked further. Those are not good reasons.
yes a mother does the best she can. but it causes a lot of damage, whether intentional or not. she has admitted she did not want me to be Jewish. but that is not her decision to make. as it is not my decision to make who my son marries.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-07-2015 at 05:00 PM..
I am not blaming anyone, simply tracing the course of events back. They are the natural outcome, the natural consequences of the unfolding of events. The chassidic rebbes saw this would happen and it did.
i take full responsibility for living my own life now, which is why I choose to live my life as a religious Jew. No matter how many people in my family (or on this forum) mock, belittle, and ridicule that choice. As Nahum Ish Gamzu would say, "Gam zu l'tovah"
Instead of taking the time to learn the basics of Judaism, You've jumped into the learned already level and is working backwards. Sorry, but one does not start with the answer to learn what the question is.
if you are not aware of it, you are speaking (yet again) in a condescending manner.
there are people on this board who would love to learn from you, who do have a great respect for your learning, and are thirsty to hear that. but your manner is so off-putting and offensive and condescending that we don't ever get to hear and benefit from your knowledge because those insults get in the way.
it reminds me of when Shimon bar Yochai left the cave after all those years and he started criticizing the people he saw for how they were living, and their crops would burst into flame from his harsh words, so God sent him back into the cave until he could tone down his harsh rebuke, then God let him out so he could do some good in the world without hurting others with his words.
how much more so for us, who are nowhere the level of Shimon bar Yochai, to be careful with our language and speak kindly to other Jews
I am not blaming anyone, simply tracing the course of events back. They are the natural outcome, the natural consequences of the unfolding of events. The chassidic rebbes saw this would happen and it did.
i take full responsibility for living my own life now, which is why I choose to live my life as a religious Jew. No matter how many people in my family (or on this forum) mock, belittle, and ridicule that choice. As Nahum Ish Gamzu would say, "Gam zu l'tovah"
[Glossary: gam zu l'tovah - this too is good]
Then you need to trace further back one more generation. Her parents were most likely secular socialists who barely knew Judaism themselves. They knew the basics and were minimally religious as were the zionists who came from that region in western Europe. Their assimilation happened generations before the Chasidim foretold it. News travelled pretty slowly back then and Chasidic leaders held/hold the keys to the gates that allow information to flow in.
if you are not aware of it, you are speaking (yet again) in a condescending manner.
there are people on this board who would love to learn from you, who do have a great respect for your learning, and are thirsty to hear that. but your manner is so off-putting and offensive and condescending that we don't ever get to hear and benefit from your knowledge because those insults get in the way.
it reminds me of when Shimon bar Yochai left the cave after all those years and he started criticizing the people he saw for how they were living, and their crops would burst into flame from his harsh words, so God sent him back into the cave until he could tone down his harsh rebuke, then God let him out so he could do some good in the world without hurting others with his words.
how much more so for us, who are nowhere the level of Shimon bar Yochai, to be careful with our language and speak kindly to other Jews
I've kind of scanned thru this thread..but one thing in your original post and question just struck me weird..Why shouldn't you attend any wedding regardless if that religion isn't of your particular faith?? My point is, I have never ever in my whole life questioned whether to attend a friend/relative's wedding..ever..
I recall going to my first Jewish Wedding Ceremony..I truly enjoyed it immensely..Loved the traditional wrapping of those glasses (shared during it) in a napkin and both stomping on it!! I said to myself WOW..Very symbolic, eh?
It is your choice to attend or not attend..whether to do not liking the people getting hitched..or work demands keeping you unavailable, or budget that makes it impossible to send a gift ( which is irrelevant IF couple know your circumstance) as your attendance is more important than $$/Gift..
Bottomline..Do whatever you are comfortable with..No one when in receipt of invitations to wedding is required or demanded to attend!!
I've kind of scanned thru this thread..but one thing in your original post and question just struck me weird..Why shouldn't you attend any wedding regardless if that religion is of your particular faith?? Point is I have never ever in my whole life questioned whether to attend a friend/relative's wedding..ever..
I recall going to my first Jewish Wedding Ceremony..I truly enjoyed it immensely..Loved the traditional wrapping of those glasses (shared during it) in a napkin and both stomping on it!! I said to myself WOW..Very symbolic, eh?
It is your choice to attend or not attend..whether to do not liking the people getting hitched..or work demands keeping you unavailable, or budget that makes it impossible to send a gift ( which is irrelevant IF couple know your circumstance) as your attendance is more important than $$/Gift..
Bottomline..Do whatever you are comfortable with..No one when in receipt of invitations to wedding is required or demanded to attend!!
Just a note -- often times, presence indicates condoning and acceptance. If the wedding is one which the individual can not (vs. "does not", or "will not" is a separate discussion) condone that person would feel a tension between an urge to go for one set of reasons and an urge not to, for another set. Competing moralities at play.
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