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Yes, the "criminals" on Wall St destroyed their pensions. I mean...c'mon. I invite you to think for yourself instead of spatting off some bullet point that you read in the Huffington Post. The market goes up and down and a lot of these pensions weren't complaining when they were seeing 20% gains in the 1990s. No investment company in the world would make the promise that the NYS pension gives to their patrons of a guaranteed rate of return of 8%.
Unfortunately, when NYS was guaranteeing pensions to people in the last century, they didn't realize that people would be collecting for longer than they put into the system. That's a big oops, like calculating the geometry for the Mars Lander in feet but inputting it in meters. By the time they realized this was going to be a problem, the unions had gotten a stranglehold on the political landscape of NY and there was no way it was changing until we are on the event horizon looking down into the abyss. We are now at that point.
It's not Wall St's fault, and that is a very lazy argument to point your finger at the wealthy. The funny part is that Wall St works for the for shareholders of companies, which are held in funds like your 401k, 403b, or the NYS pension plan. So, Wall St works for you and I with one goal in mind. Make as much money for us as they can. So, when you blame Wall St, you can just turn your finger back around and point it at yourself.
I don't read HuffPost, but I understand your point since there's many "outlets" with what I'm saying as a main concept. However, that doesn't mean you can dismiss it as a valid point because you didn't read it on Bloomberg or see it on CNBS.
There's no argument on the miscalculations, but that wasn't the theme here in this thread. Because that argument applies to SocSec and its immediate outliers even more - talk about miscalculating!
So yeah - it was bad math chasing bad math. However, I can't believe you'd argue that what Wall St did hasn't brought it all exponentially forward and push the miscalculation to today. If it wasn't for the horrendous performance of the pensions, we'd still be kicking the can instead of having this discussion now... and I'm fairly certain you know I am referring to CDO and derivative type funds - not APPL stock here. Leaving the stock "market" aside for another thread, it's the toxic packaging I am referring to with "Wall St" (investment bankers). I'm not pointing a lazy finger at the wealthy with that - so please spare me. I'm pointing at egregious fraud that immediately took down the solvency of the pension financial system. To overlook that and make it about "those $#@! unions" wile pumping your fists in the air is as lazy as you are making me out to be.
Yes, the "criminals" on Wall St destroyed their pensions. I mean...c'mon. I invite you to think for yourself instead of spatting off some bullet point that you read in the Huffington Post. The market goes up and down and a lot of these pensions weren't complaining when they were seeing 20% gains in the 1990s. No investment company in the world would make the promise that the NYS pension gives to their patrons of a guaranteed rate of return of 8%.
Unfortunately, when NYS was guaranteeing pensions to people in the last century, they didn't realize that people would be collecting for longer than they put into the system. That's a big oops, like calculating the geometry for the Mars Lander in feet but inputting it in meters. By the time they realized this was going to be a problem, the unions had gotten a stranglehold on the political landscape of NY and there was no way it was changing until we are on the event horizon looking down into the abyss. We are now at that point.
It's not Wall St's fault, and that is a very lazy argument to point your finger at the wealthy. The funny part is that Wall St works for the for shareholders of companies, which are held in funds like your 401k, 403b, or the NYS pension plan. So, Wall St works for you and I with one goal in mind. Make as much money for us as they can. So, when you blame Wall St, you can just turn your finger back around and point it at yourself.
Ha Ha, that's cute. Wall St execs take bonuses for losing trillions in stockholder wealth and laying off thousands. That goal of "making as much money as they can" certainly only applies to a very selct few and NOT you, I or the pension funds. I don't take personal responsibility for politicians playing idiotic games with the pension fund any more than I excuse Wall St crooks from looting their companies and taking taxpayer handouts to stay afloat. Plenty of impropriety to go around. At least the politicians are just dumb. The banks and wall streeters are straight up criminals, repackaging garbage securities and slapping A ratings on them to sell to you, me and YES, the pension funds.
I think people loose sight of the fact that unions just didn't reachi in and take everything that they have. Someone was on the other side of the table giving it to them. And folks in Nassau County know it was not always the GOP.
This is why I see no need to revoke the right of collective bargining or change how unions elect their members and collect their dues. Who ever is on the other side of the table needs to bargin better on behalf of the people.
Watch the third short video from the top entitled, "Choose Your Boss: Electing Politicians." Description of video:
Public education is one of the few sectors of society where employees can spend money to elect or defeat political candidates that affect their personal interest. Those that have been in the trenches – and have been on the receiving end of special interest negative campaigns – discuss what it’s like to be opposed by some of the biggest spenders in state politics.
It's actually 15+% and 15% too many. Wait a sec, if the whole argument for union members having defined-benefit pension plans vs. 401k type plans was supposedly because the unions "didn't want to leave their members' retirements in the hands of Wall st", then how are you blaming Wall street for destroying their pensions?!? That makes no sense.
I see how it works, they use Wall street as a scapegoat for why they don't want 401k plans, but they really are investing in the stock market anyway. It's all a front, they should just come right out and say taxpayers will cover any shortfall if we have a bad year or two in fund performance.
Again, it's a structural problem. There is no such thing as 7.5% risk-free annual gains, which the pensions use as their target. And if that target isn't reached, they force the taxpayers to cover the shortfall. Real risk-free rates are around 3%, that is what the pension fund growth rates should be based on (7-10 year treasuries, not fantasy 8%).
That's one structural problem. The other is the unions don't pay enough towards their benefits. Even with the concessions, it's well short of what is needed to balance the $3.7 Billion deficit. The concessions need to be double what they agreed to, to match what private sector workers are paying and even federal employees pay. And, the pay should be based off CPI, not self-given raises. I took a quick look at the budget, it would have been a $1.9 Billion deficit even if the economy grew at 2007 levels, so right there should be enough evidence that they are spending more on public service entitlements, than the WI taxpayers can afford.
Yes, why should their OUTRIGHT FANTASY of a 7.5% return fall squarely on the shoulders of the taxpayers? Because we're not already shelling out ENOUGH money to their pensions?
It's not Wall St's fault, and that is a very lazy argument to point your finger at the wealthy. The funny part is that Wall St works for the for shareholders of companies, which are held in funds like your 401k, 403b, or the NYS pension plan. So, Wall St works for you and I with one goal in mind. Make as much money for us as they can. So, when you blame Wall St, you can just turn your finger back around and point it at yourself.
That's a very naive textbook way to describe what many people on Wall st do.
They work to make money for THEMSELVES first. The guys who sold mortgage backed securities are out of a job now. Great, the system worked, they got fired because they did a bad job.
Problem is they just walked away with millions of dollars, SO THEY DON'T CARE if they don't have a job anymore, they are RICH!! Most people who get into the Wall St. grinder are there to do one thing: make money, make a lot of it, and make it quick. If this involves shareholdes actually losing money..who cares as long as they get theirs?
This works on a small scale with people running your 401K..they're still pulling a fee out even if you lose money, Mr. Pie in the Sky "we work for the shareholders". Please.
What, is the government going to prosecute us for fraud? Ha, we paid them off!!
To be a grown person and still buy ECO 101 version of Wall St is a very, very naive..especially with what just happened.
In how Germany has handled things? Do you understand how Germany has become a "strong" economy? They joined the EU and naturally devalued their currency and the cost of their exports by joining with weaker economic nations.
Maybe I don't understand this correctly, but aren't the ones on the other side of the table in an unholy marriage with the unions. Ya know, union bosses give big campaign donations to get officals elected, then they give it back to unions with nose bleed high contracts, and on and on, in WI or NY.
So, isn't NY still a democracy? The OP asked could it happen here? The answer is doubtful--without a vote in that direction. So, if the people of NY complain about high taxes, then vote differently, not just continue jaw exercises. I'm all for fairness, and I don't believe extreme liberal or extreme conservatives have all the answers. WI, OH, IL, NJ, and NY soon are all very bankrupt in the billions, and everyone should be very concerned about LI and NY's future.
It's also no surprise that politicans speak with forked tongues, and when you vote in a centrist liberal there's always the risk of them going extreme left, and vice versa with a conservative. So, the platform that elects them, doesn't mean that's exactly what u get in the end. That's the game of politics, stretch your true agenda and see if you can still get re-elected. It hasn't changed much over the years. If Walker, Christie, Kasich, etc are union busting because they believe that's the can getting kicked down the road, if that's not what the people want, they get voted out. Same applies for reps. and senators. Another fact of life, is that whatever they do now legally between elections is eventually hashed out collectively with all voting elected officials, many changes take place, and the inclusion is based on a vote on the final form of a law. Isn't it just that straight forward, and the "new norm." will still be decided this way?
You hit upon something that made me think - union bosses and campaign donations. If we had some real campaign reform, this part of the problem would go away. To me, there is no reason Goldman Sachs, the UAW or any group needs to be able to contribute to campaigns. Remove the big money and PACs and now you have elected officals looking out for the public well being across the table from the unions, not 2 teams that are both on the same side.
ROFLMAO watching the wheels come of the wagon on the TP Express.
Its comedy to me how far out ahead of their constituency they were willing to go.
I cant believe they took the bait, then they tipped their hand with the whole Koch phone punking thing.
Idiots.
In a way its a shame because we just crapped the bed on getting at true reform for Civil Service Labor on LI.
Only a Moron(again Millionaires & Morons) would make a referendum on spending about collective bargaining then drape them selves in the constitution with blatant disregard for First Amendment which cuts both ways in terms of Free Assembly.
Thanks for the White House in 2016 Ben Franklin on crack.
Better get yer Cheesehead on and some TP for your bunghole.
ROFLMAO watching the wheels come of the wagon on the TP Express.
Its comedy to me how far out ahead of their constituency they were willing to go.
I cant believe they took the bait, then they tipped their hand with the whole Koch phone punking thing.
Idiots.
In a way its a shame because we just crapped the bed on getting at true reform for Civil Service Labor on LI.
Only a Moron(again Millionaires & Morons) would make a referendum on spending about collective bargaining then drape them selves in the constitution with blatant disregard for First Amendment which cuts both ways in terms of Free Assembly.
Thanks for the White House in 2016 Ben Franklin on crack.
Better get yer Cheesehead on and some TP for your bunghole.
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