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Imagine how differently Long Island would have developed if the LIRR was not subsidized?
Why would I want to imagine living in a depressed economic wasteland, the likes of rural Arkansas? Wait a second, I don't have to, because I wouldnt be living here, I'd be living somewhere else.
I've said it earleir, and so has someone else. Mass transit isn't a subsidy, it's a public service.
If there were no subsidy, the poor would have to relocate in order to survive, and then their chances for climbing the economic ladder would vastly improve. Call it tough love.
So you're saying that the people working at the McDonald's in that fancy, expensive neighborhood can somehow afford to live light next store to the place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
Even if the gov't could generate $3 in economic activity by spending $1, it is a loss, from what could have been, if the private sector could generate more than $3 by spending $1. But, in order to spend the $1, the gov't either taxes or borrows, and thereby reduces the private sector's access to limited resources. The seen and the unseen.
But in the case of public services (as Interlude correctly calls public transportation), they generally can't be run at a profit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interlude
As usual you're just repeating mantras instead of arguing.
Money spent on mass transit generates economic activity for local businesses. Those without cars can go shopping. The disabled can get to work instead of sitting home collecting disability. McDonald's can open in the morning because its employees, who can't buy cars on $7 an hour, can take the bus across town. Students can get to school, providing a more educated labor pool for employers.
This is an example of using public resources to benefit the economy. Much as we as a society have an interest in arresting criminals and putting out fires that could spread, destroying neighborhoods, we have an interest in the mobility of our citizens, especially in a spread-out place like Long Island where you can't just walk everywhere.
Very true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
Imagine how differently Long Island would have developed if the LIRR was not subsidized?
Everybody would be packed into inner-city slums (or expensive, crowded places in the inner city) because they couldn't afford to travel further out.
Pequa - I don't have a problem with looking at salaries in principle, but I seriously doubt that's what's going to happen here. In fact here's what we got:Hmm, so just a little cut to retirement contributions and health care in exchange for guaranteed raises.
When you look at the high salaries (like these here) and include all the fringe benefits they receive, they are being payed very handsomely. These jobs (storekeeper, line supervisor, bus driver, dispatchers, etc.) making upwards of $150k when you factor in benefits, is not realistic or affordable. Not to ridicule bus drivers and these other positions, but it doesn't exactly take rocket scientists to fill them. I think you're downplaying or not realizing the true cost of healthcare and pension costs.
On the public service aspect of LI Bus: I agree. We should have some form of public transportation for Nassau residents. The problem is, such a small percentage of us actually use the service..and it costs way too much. LI Bus is subsidized more than other MTA operations. No one says they have to earn a profit, but no where in the NY Constitution does it say that Public Benefit Corporations are supposed to lose 70 cents on the dollar. In fact, I'm not even sure they're supposed to "lose money" to begin with..but they all do.
I believe I am very qualified to answer this question. I've taken both mode of transportation from home to midtown as well for years
the n20/21 is pretty decent in the morning. The 7 train is pretty much a battle of agressive riders going to the city. MY door to door commute is approx 1:15 flat. Risk is 7 subway ride has delays which is average 3-4x a month for me which is annoying. Going home is the problem imo; at times is almost unbearable. Again the agressive 7 train riders. Then the bus lines can get rather long. I seen no buses for long periods of time while a pile of buses can come at once. I think the record for me was 4 buses came back to back. The door to door commute usually is 1:15-2hrs (avg 1:45) for me; on bad rainy days with traffic delays it can take me 2.5 hrs. The traffic of nothern blvd going east with its stop & go makes the ride that much more unforgiving for me. Its amazing how much reading I get done.
You are correct about the uncertainty of the NICE's future & its riders post 2012. Its unlikely to change routes as this is a frequesntly used line. The issue is if prices rise in 2013 and its its transferable to MTA system in the future.
LIRR Port Wash line is THE best line on the LIRR. Its the only line that doesn't go thru Jamaica Station. Its rarely fails on me. It can get a little crowded on one or two popular scheduled runs. My door to door commute is around 50 min to 1 hr flat. Biggest drawback as you noted is the fare is more than double the cost of an unlimted metro card
Bottom line, the morning commute is ok. the evening is a wild card to ok to horrible. LIRR Port Wash is reliable as they come. I recc you to try both. fee free to ask any ques
You can't just throw out numbers and assume that people are going to find them outrageous because they are higher than what Joe Blow makes. You have to compare them, at best to a similar municipal bus agency, or at least to a private bus operator.
Seanx4's post does indicate that VA pays less in salary overall, but how do individual positions stack up? IIRC, the comparable example was teachers - and they weren't making too much less in VA, it was more a matter of eliminating waste and duplication, which could be done because the system was built from scratch in the modern era instead of being dragged kicking and screaming out of the 1950s.
Seems like of a moot point however, since we now have a private operator that just signed a union conract that will basically keep the status quo. Ergo, my original point - what we will likely see is service cuts and fare increases.
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