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Oh nonsense! I call BS on your post. The NYS Teachers' Union is THE most powerful in the USA. Every April, during Albany budget season, at 4:30 AM ,three coach buses pull in front of the Teacher's Union building in downtown Manhattan. They're filled and the teachers' union caravan makes it's way 4 hours to Albany. When the buses arrive at the state capital, the union personnel disembark, each one on a mission to lobby our elected officials. The bulk of huge fortunes our teachers are making comes out of Albany. The policies and mandates all come out of Albany.
When I go to vote my school budget down, which I do every year, the paid volunteer leafs through the signature book, page after page of empty signature lines. Except for public employees and fellow teachers. Even if the budget was voted down, it would result in the district coming up with a supplemental budget. The last time this happened in my district, the supplemental budget was nearly the same increase! Even if the district had to go on austerity, which with the reserves my district has would never happen in 100 years, the cost of the 'elective' programs (such as art and music) and extra curriculars would be foisted on to the shoulders of the parents. No layoffs, no expense reduction, etc.
So stop trying to sell the idea the voters are responsible. In this state, the unions control the politics, which sets the policies.
Cuomo wants it opened and unions do not......runs counter to what you are claiming.
It's not that a change to the constitution would result in the lowering of of pension payments. It's that it might be changed to allow the state to "borrow" pension funds, something it is not currently allowed to do. This "borrowing" is the same thing that the federal government did to the social security trust fund, making it virtually bankrupt.
The recent public pension retirees I know are pulling in more like $75k
Congratulations! You're making a great case why anecdotal evidence is basically worthless!
The public retirees that you know of don't mean squat. I guarantee you that you do not know a statistically significant number. Also, you're comparing people receiving pensions in a very high cost of living area with the entire state, where wages are much much lower.
I mean the math here seriously isn't tough. The statement "the average state retiree collects a pension of $22k a year" and the statement "yeah well I know some that collect $75k!" are not mutually exclusive and the second statement only serves to further demonstrate that those collecting higher pensions are a minority in the overall picture, and that many many people collect far less than $22k.
Congratulations! You're making a great case why anecdotal evidence is basically worthless!
The public retirees that you know of don't mean squat. I guarantee you that you do not know a statistically significant number. Also, you're comparing people receiving pensions in a very high cost of living area with the entire state, where wages are much much lower.
I mean the math here seriously isn't tough. The statement "the average state retiree collects a pension of $22k a year" and the statement "yeah well I know some that collect $75k!" are not mutually exclusive and the second statement only serves to further demonstrate that those collecting higher pensions are a minority in the overall picture, and that many many people collect far less than $22k.
I think you are guilty of making a basically worthless case too.
New York is a big state and those areas where the salaries aren't as high bring the high salaries of long island down.
Now if you want to come back with filtered data on LI pensions then we can talk because it won't be 22k.
Agreed good post by interlude, monster I’m frankly flabbergasted you are against a convention! I figured you’d the biggest cheerleader. But you are right it would be nothing but a political, corrupt, special interest disaster that the sewer of NY politics is famous for. On the other hand just the slight (and I do mean slight) chance to kill something like the Triborough amendment may be worth it.
I have said more than once I'm for it in theory. I'd love to smash the eggs to make a new omelette. But that isn't what's going to happen. It would be hard to get anything trustworthy out of a CC in a best case political climate. In this one, I can only imagine what will get jammed down our throats. I prefer the demon I know to the one I haven't seen yet. We can get smarter changes by the amendment process.
Frankly, I don't want to give even one of these dingalings (not even myself, lol) $79k/year to go up to Albany for hands on corruption training. lol
If you're like me and are sick of being ripped off through your real estate taxes for the ridiculously high public school and police pay and pensions that enable them to drive their fancy cars and trucks and buy their kids houses, this is your chance to do something about it.
The Constitutional Convention (called con con by the politicos) is an opportunity to make profound, long-lasting and much-needed changes to New York's outdated state constitution. If this passes through with people voting "Yes" for it, this will be the first time in a half century some of the corruption in New York State has a possibility of being changed.
To explain: If a majority statewide votes "yes," a constitutional convention will be set for the spring of 2019. The convention would be made up of elected delegates, with 3 provided from each state senate district - there are 63 in total - plus 15 statewide. Elections would occur next year, and ANYONE can run to be a delegate.
This is important to remember if the convention takes place: No changes can occur to the constitution without statewide approval at the ballot box.
The last New York State constitutional convention was held in 1967, some years after which the law was rewritten to require a vote on a convention every 20 years. Voters turned down a convention in 1997; if this upcoming vote fails, New York won't get another chance to try for another one until 2037. Imagine where your real estate tax bill total will be by then. (Yikes!)
This is a rare chance to enact sweeping change without grinding through a deeply flawed legislative process. The New York State constitution is an old, unwieldy document - the length of a short novel at 50,000 words - that has not been updated since 1938.
One of the most significant arguments animating opposition (the unions) is the potential loss of strong labor protections baked into a constitution last written in 1938, when organized labor was on the rise.
Public school teachers and administrators, and the police - their pensions could be significantly changed from their millionaire status they have today to something less - us non-pension earners would need a minimum of $1,000,000 in the bank to draw on over 10 years time to receive their typical $100,000 per year in a pension (not to mention their health care insurance that's costing us a small fortune, but we'll leave that large detail out for now to try to keep things simple). Multiply that $100,000 per year by 30 years retirement (typical life expectancy), and that comes to $3,000,000 we would need in the bank guaranteed for the rest of us for our retirements. As I said before, the public school retirees for the most part have been turned into, for all practical purposes, millionaires.
That's just the teachers. With 120 school district superintendents for just Suffolk and Nassau Counties alone, we're talking big bucks that all come from our outrageously high real estate tax bills. Not just the $100,000 the teachers retire with (and increase all the time with cost of living hikes), but superintendents retire with huge packages close to 3 times that of the typical teacher. All of these pensions are what's driving up our huge tax bills.
I don't know about you, but after our personal expenses including our $10,000 school tax, we surely don't have $3,000,000 in the bank for our own retirement nor in an unreliable 401K. What are we suppose to retire on after we keep handing over our money that we need for our own retirement? By my conservative estimate over the past 30 years, we've handed over at least $200,000 just for the public school portion of our tax bill - money that we could certainly use for our own retirement. It's difficult to save extra money every year to fork over for the greedy retirees' pensions. The interesting part is that no public school teacher or administrator nor police ever save anything at all for their retirements since they know they'll be sucking the money out of the rest of us.
You can bet all the unions - teacher union, police union, county union, etc. - are gearing up and chomping at the bit to vote "no" on the constitutional convention so they can keep their large pensions in place. But the rest of us aren't in unions, and are being ripped off with high taxes to keep these union retirees flush with enough money to keep them in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed. And to keep the high cost of living on Long Island affordable to them. The trouble is, it's not affordable to the rest of us who have to scrape together thousands of dollars to pay our tax bills; some people are being taxed out of their houses to support these unionized retirees, and we'll never see that money come back to us ever.
The rest of us non-union people have clout because of our numbers - there are more of us than union workers. Everyone needs to go out and vote on November 7 and vote your mind. If you want these ripoff taxes and this legalized thievery to continue, don't vote at all - or vote "no" so there's no convention to make some much needed changes and to try and get rid of New York State corruption. If you want change, vote "yes." But you have to go out and make the effort to go to the polls and make your vote count.
If this constitutional convention takes place and the pensions of the public school workers are cut, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the retirees with less of a pension came to my front door, rang the bell, I answer the door, and they put a gun in my face and stick me up for the $10,000 they feel they're owed from my current real estate tax bill.
A whole gamut of folks are right there with you for a 'yes' vote:
Apparently,we need a provision in the New York Constitution that guarantees reproductive freedom per se, not as a derivative of a right to privacy. We also need a stand-alone right to privacy. Try these:
· Article I, §19 [Right To Reproductive Freedom] The Legislature may not enact, nor the governor sign, any law that unreasonably restricts the right of a woman to full and free control over reproductive decisions.
· Article I, §19. [Right of Privacy] The right of each person to a reasonable expectation of privacy shall not be infringed.
Also, a yes vote could help split NY into two workable states...not the disfunctional single state we see;
The State of New York contains a tremendously diverse population and is unique in its dichotomy. The overwhelming majority of the state consists of small to medium sized communities set in a rural and suburban climate; generally conservative values blend with moderate liberal ideals to create a unique political platform. Meanwhile, the downstate counties that make up New York City are significantly more liberal leaning in their values and are world famous for the size and power of the most significant city in the world.
It is equally unfair to both upstate and downstate residents to share a representative government; the vast differences in lifestyle and aspirations demonstrate that both downstate and upstate should have their own autonomous governments so as to more effectively serve their constituents. Much more about this detailed plan is here: Home
Last edited by Quick Commenter; 10-24-2017 at 04:02 PM..
Nice to come in mid-discussion and get it wrong, too.
Everything you state as a problem is at the LOCAL level. If YOU can't control the deals YOUR board gives to YOUR union, it's YOUR problem, not Wayne, Orleans, Buffalo or even Kings Counties. It's YOUR team negotiating the agreements, not Albany, not Trump, not McCain...YOUR Superintendent and YOUR board. The only thing the con con can do is go after the TRIBOROUGH AGREEMENT (see above, ad nauseum).
EVEN THEN, you or Oh Beehave better get yourself on the School Board (not the con con delegation) to renegotiate your collective bargaining agreements. No one is going to stop collective bargaining. It's a non-starter. They avoid it by power of the TA. Without it, they have to negotiate. Will YOU be there to negotiate the deal or just blame someone else when you don't like the budget or contingency, or austerity, or the program cuts blah blah blah.
Take some responsibility for the fear you have of screwing up your district and kids by actually fighting the union. That's how it's played. That's how they win. Your neighbors don't vote or they don't agree with YOU. Or we just don't gather in busses to go fight. It sounds silly, but that's how it's done. Buses full of angry taxpayers is how you fight busses full of union organizers. Or you VOTE them out when you can. We don't do either. We just elect the same dummies, wait for them to get indicted, then complain about their pensions.
Sorry, folks, blame away. Everyone likes to make everyone else the boogey man and I have been on here for a long time ripping the teacher unions apart.
The FACT is the constitution has to be opened up to change the LEGAL and COURT system. That is where the problems are. 1.5 years to get a court date on a speeding violation. Billions of wasted dollars, far more than any pensions or public benefits. Not a system of justice but a revenue and corruption machine. You think teachers and cops get paid...try lawyers and judges.
What's it to you whether I come in mid-discussion? You are wrong with a capital 'W', your points are flawed and I only wish the world worked as you say it does.
Duh! Of course it's a problem at the local level, but since you're clearly on a higher intellectual plane than the rest of us, let me clear one thing up. My district has had budget increases every year but since 2014, those increases have been within the property tax cap. Prior to that, we averraged 6% or more. Where did the cap come from? Albany. Albany also delves out aid to school districts in lieu of tax levies. So, genius, much of the budget is influenced by what goes on in Albany.
As I mentioned in my previous post, the one year the budget was defeated the increase was 6.4%. The contingency budget, proffered by district administrators was 6.3%. And the contingency included cuts to late buses and other student services. So I guess not everything in the world goes according to your script.
Finally, on LI, the corruption, the greed, it's systematic. This means whether you vote Demo or Rep (and sometimes the clown is running unopposed), it doesn't matter. Local government here is fat, dumb and happy. Vote yeah or nay, doesn't matter because chances are you're the only non-union member voting anyway.
Congratulations! You're making a great case why anecdotal evidence is basically worthless!
The public retirees that you know of don't mean squat. I guarantee you that you do not know a statistically significant number. Also, you're comparing people receiving pensions in a very high cost of living area with the entire state, where wages are much much lower.
I mean the math here seriously isn't tough. The statement "the average state retiree collects a pension of $22k a year" and the statement "yeah well I know some that collect $75k!" are not mutually exclusive and the second statement only serves to further demonstrate that those collecting higher pensions are a minority in the overall picture, and that many many people collect far less than $22k.
My god, what is it with you people on this forum? You're all so hostile and insistent that there's at least one post here that speaks the truth... your own.
You don't know me and you have no idea how many retired teachers, cops and fireman I know. You don't even know if I'm a retired public pensioner, do you? But no, you're right on every count.
Most of the pension information is public record, so do your homework.
OF course, I'm sure even you can predict what will happen when today's $140k/annum gym teachers and $200k++ cops start to retire. Oh and did you know, over 200 SCPD personnel earn over $200k/annum?
What's it to you whether I come in mid-discussion? You are wrong with a capital 'W', your points are flawed and I only wish the world worked as you say it does.
...because you missed MY quote that said the same thing you said, that's why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmylawn
Duh! Of course it's a problem at the local level, but since you're clearly on a higher intellectual plane than the rest of us, let me clear one thing up. My district has had budget increases every year but since 2014, those increases have been within the property tax cap. Prior to that, we averraged 6% or more. Where did the cap come from? Albany. Albany also delves out aid to school districts in lieu of tax levies. So, genius, much of the budget is influenced by what goes on in Albany.
As I mentioned in my previous post, the one year the budget was defeated the increase was 6.4%. The contingency budget, proffered by district administrators was 6.3%. And the contingency included cuts to late buses and other student services. So I guess not everything in the world goes according to your script.
Finally, on LI, the corruption, the greed, it's systematic. This means whether you vote Demo or Rep (and sometimes the clown is running unopposed), it doesn't matter. Local government here is fat, dumb and happy. Vote yeah or nay, doesn't matter because chances are you're the only non-union member voting anyway.
Everything you said is according to my script. The world works exactly as I said. It's the law(s). I didn't make it up. What do you think a Constitutional Convention is about...THE LAWS. You keep talking about YOUR district. Exactly my point.
Your attitude to do nothing, be a victim, the system wins cause it's so corrupt isn't strategy or planning. It's just whining. There is a problem, fix it. Is it easy? No. Will Albany fix it. Also, no.
The process is to vote out or defund corruption. We don't vote and we fund anything we get scared into (like "we're going to cut the football program."). There's your problem. I didn't invent it and I'm not on a higher intellectual plane because I can see it for what it is and you blame "the fat happy local govt." WHO YOU VOTED FOR.
The topic is about a con con to FIX the system. You just keep telling us it's broken. Duh. We know.
New York is a big state and those areas where the salaries aren't as high bring the high salaries of long island down.
Of course! That's the point!
LI public salaries are quite high, while upstate public salaries are going to be much lower. However this is not a Long Island Constitutional Convention, its for the entire state, therefore just saying, "Yeah well this particular area has really high salaries" is a meaningless statement, because its the state as a whole that matters.
Nobody disagrees that there are many retired public employees in LI collecting large pensions. However, even when you include them, the average pensioneer for the entire state is still only collecting $22k a year. This shows hows few people in the big picture are actually taking home six figure pensions, even though that's all anyone likes to talk about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmylawn
You don't know me and you have no idea how many retired teachers, cops and fireman I know. You don't even know if I'm a retired public pensioner, do you? But no, you're right on every count.
I guarantee you 100% that you do not know a statistically significant number of retirees, nor the details about their pension. Plus, the people you know are mostly going to be on Long Island, where salaries are typically much higher. For every person out there collecting some huge pension, there's a dozen retired guys who picked up litter off the highway collecting $10k a year.
The simple fact that you can include all of these public school administrators and such that are drawing over $100k a year in retirement, and yet the average across the whole system is still $22k a year clearly demonstrates that. This is super easy math.
Whether or not you yourself are currently retired and collecting a pension is wholly irrelevant. Just another example of how people get hung up on small micro issues, when this is a macro level topic.
Also, everyone just seems to gloss over the fact that the vast majority of the pension payouts come from the equities portfolio that the contributions are invested in!
This whole thing reminds me of one of my favorite charts. If you ask the average American what percentage of our federal budget goes towards foreign aid, they'll likely say somewhere around 25%. If you ask them how much they think should be spend on foreign aid, they'll likely say around 10%. In reality about 1% of our budget is spent on foreign aid. I guarantee you if you ask the average person on the street (especially on LI) what they think the average retired state employee is collecting on their pension, you're not going to get an answer anywhere close to $22k.
Special interest groups have done an excellent job turning all the focus of this convention to the near meaningless. This takes the emphasis off the fact that virtually all laws in New York are fair game - do you know how many people are drooling over rolling back environmental protections in the Adirondack Mountains?
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