Is converting to natural gas worth it? (sale, transfer)

[PeteyBoy23]

Thanks dude.

#1 All Weil Mclain or Burnhammodels are > 90% efficient? I want to be sure we are getting a very efficient model, while we are making this big push to gas.

#3 Any reason to get one over the other, or as long as I get one of the three, it's very efficient?

#4 My buddy suggested that some people who recycle metal will come pick it up for free. Thoughts? Also, can you give me some detail regarding this sheetrock? There is no sheetrock above our current burner. Is that bad?

[Kbinspections]

Originally Posted by PeteyBoy23

Thanks dude.

#1 All Weil Mclain or Burnhammodels are > 90% efficient? I want to be sure we are getting a very efficient model, while we are making this big push to gas.

Both make several models that range from 87-94%....ask for the most eff. standard boiler they sell. You do not want a condensing boiler (Most eff.) for a replacement.....

#3 Any reason to get one over the other, or as long as I get one of the three, it's very efficient?

All very simuliar, all great, get the one with the best price and or warranty. I have a superstor & love it.

#4 My buddy suggested that some people who recycle metal will come pick it up for free. Thoughts? Also, can you give me some detail regarding this sheetrock? There is no sheetrock above our current burner. Is that bad?

Maybe but old boilers have asbestos jackets in them that scare people away from taking them....

Current code is to install 64 sq feet (2 sheets) of 5/8 fire code (type x) sheetrock above all boilers. It will protect the ceiling from fire for 1 hour. IMO, well worth the 30 bucks and the effort. FYI, the plumber will not do this for you, you need to do it. Its much easier to do it when the old boiler is out and before the new one is in.

See my notes....

[stevemunk]

Originally Posted by groomes

got an estimate today keep steam on the 1st floor and baseboard on the 2nd floor. burnham steam boiler with heat exchanger. 81% eff $5000 includes running 1inch pipe from meter . no chimmney liner

I decided to convert my boiler to gas. Since I use steam heat I won't save much with a new boiler.
My current Utica boiler is about 20 years old. Cost for water heater ,oil tank removal and conversion will be $3,100

[MTAtech]

Nation Grid, on Long Island, offers (through July 2008) a promotion for a Burnham Series 2 boiler (http://key8382.keyrewards.biz/prostores/servlet/-strse-31/Burnham-Gas-Boiler--dsh-/Detail - broken link) for $599 plus installation by your plumber. They also offer a Burnham Paravan high-efficiency boiler for $1,099. I think the Paravan is the Burnham PVG (http://www.burnham.com/pvg_scg.htm - broken link) (not sure though.) Since the later unit doesn't require modification to the flue and also may get Energy Star rebates and NYS tax credits, it makes sense to consider that unit.

I have several plumbers scheduled to look at my system, which is a 45 year old oil boiler, with two zones. I have gas in the house with a gas line run to the boiler area already. I have an external gas fired water tank too.

Does anyone have a ballpark estimate of what a plumber should charge to install either of those gas boilers (including removal of the old boiler and the oil tank in the basement?)

[Kbinspections]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

Nation Grid, on Long Island, offers (through July 2008) a promotion for a Burnham Series 2 boiler (http://key8382.keyrewards.biz/prostores/servlet/-strse-31/Burnham-Gas-Boiler--dsh-/Detail - broken link) for $599 plus installation by your plumber. They also offer a Burnham Paravan high-efficiency boiler for $1,099. I think the Paravan is the Burnham PVG (http://www.burnham.com/pvg_scg.htm - broken link) (not sure though.) Since the later unit doesn't require modification to the flue and also may get Energy Star rebates and NYS tax credits, it makes sense to consider that unit.

I have several plumbers scheduled to look at my system, which is a 45 year old oil boiler, with two zones. I have gas in the house with a gas line run to the boiler area already. I have an external gas fired water tank too.

Does anyone have a ballpark estimate of what a plumber should charge to install either of those gas boilers (including removal of the old boiler and the oil tank in the basement?)

About $3000-4000.............

[MTAtech]

Originally Posted by Kbinspections

About $3000-4000.............

That's about what I was thinking.

I use 750 gal. of oil per year in my 45 year old boiler. Assuming that this boiler is 60% efficient, and assuming that the spread between the cost of oil and gas remains the same, switching to a 90% efficient gas boiler will save $2,000 the first year.

The Slomins price for oil is now $4.89/gal. 750 gal. costs $3,667. The equivalent cost of gas is about $2.50. Assuming an efficiency gain of 20%, this yields a seasonal cost of $1,500. (2.50 * (1-0.20) * 750) or, a savings of $2,167 ($3,667.50 - $1,500). Thus, the net cost is $1,099 {boiler} plus $3,500 {installation} = $4,599 {total cost} minus $2,167 {1st year savings} = $2,432.

EDIT:
If the 2008 Energy Bill gets passed, it will also include a $150 credit for Energy Star boilers.

[Kbinspections]

Looks like you did your home work. FYI....60% is a low figure even for an old boiler....think 68-76%.

I would also install a indirect fired HW stroage tank and lose the hw heater. Should cost about $1000 + install.

If you do not have the coin now, have the plumber set up the manifold for an extra zone or two so you can add one in the future or have a zone available for a possible addition.

[MTAtech]

Originally Posted by Kbinspections

Looks like you did your home work. FYI....60% is a low figure even for an old boiler....think 68-76%.

I would also install a indirect fired HW storage tank and lose the hw heater. Should cost about $1000 + install.

If you do not have the coin now, have the plumber set up the manifold for an extra zone or two so you can add one in the future or have a zone available for a possible addition.

I strive to be thorough. Even at 68-76%, the savings are at least $1,500 in the first year, presuming my assumptions represent reality.

My understanding is that the advantage to an Indirect-Fired Hot Water Heater is that the high-efficiency boiler is more efficient at heating water and therefore hot water costs will be lower than maintaining a separate HW heater.

The downside is that the boiler is electronic ignition (no pilot) and therefore in case of a blackout -- which happens intermittently with Long Island storms, I'll neither have heat nor hot water. At least with a separate tank, we've been able to bathe (by candle-light, woo-woo) and wash dishes with hot water during black-outs.

Is it possible to heat the water with the new boiler and store it in the EXISTING hot water tank? Doing so will allow me to set the tank on OFF and shut the pilot light. In the event of a black-out I can restart it. It would also allow me to avoid buying another tank.

[Kbinspections]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

I strive to be thorough. Even at 68-76%, the savings are at least $1,500 in the first year, presuming my assumptions represent reality.

My understanding is that the advantage to an Indirect-Fired Hot Water Heater is that the high-efficiency boiler is more efficient at heating water and therefore hot water costs will be lower than maintaining a separate HW heater.

Plus the fact that you heating the domestic water for "free" during the heating season because of the "priority status" of the storage tank. When house is heated so is the water.

The downside is that the boiler is electronic ignition (no pilot) and therefore in case of a blackout -- which happens intermittently with Long Island storms, I'll neither have heat nor hot water. At least with a separate tank, we've been able to bathe (by candle-light, woo-woo) and wash dishes with hot water during black-outs.

Just get a larger tank, with such low standby losses you should be fine. I have gone away for 4 days with the boiler off in the summer & stilll had hot water when returning home. I have a 75 gallon unit.

Is it possible to heat the water with the new boiler and store it in the EXISTING hot water tank? Doing so will allow me to set the tank on OFF and shut the pilot light. In the event of a black-out I can restart it. It would also allow me to avoid buying another tank.

No because there is no copper- nickel heat exchanger in the hwh. I have seen some "twined" in the system for that use but very rare.

[xbure9x]

How does the indirect storage tank work? Is it mostly "on demand", or does it randomly fire the burner whenever it feels like it to keep the water in the tank hot?

and KB, when you mentioned shutting the burner off, I assume you mean the little red switch at the top of the stairs in most houses that says "oil burner shutoff"? You can actually just shut it off when you go away, and then just turn it back on? I guess that's because of no pilot light? IF you went away in the summer, how often would the thing fire on its own anyway, assuming you went away for a week and no one was home?

good info everyone, keep it up. We are at that crossroads with an oil burner as well, but since we have a relatively young (around 10 years old) Weil McLain, we decided to, gulp, try to survive this winter with the oil and see how bad it actually will be, and if it's horrible ($$$ wise), we just convert next summer.