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Dr. Bottingheimer was still there when I was a student--graduated in 2000! I had several classes with him because British history was my main field. Lovely man.
Honestly I just don't think Long Island can be compared to anyplace down south that ISN'T either a major city or a very close suburb of one. It's 'apples vs oranges'. I was talking to a friend yesterday who recently came back from a driving trip to Florida. On the way they stopped at a town in Alabama (sorry, can't remember the name) and saw a new-home development going up, so they decided to check it out. She was gushing to me about what a beautiful new house they could buy there for only 115K and property taxes of $500/yr, and that "It's not in the middle of nowhere either, it's got a Lowe's and a Home Depot and TGIFridays and two Starbucks and about a dozen restaurants and a mall less than 5 miles away". I bit my tongue and said nothing except "Sounds like you guys really liked it" but I was thinking silently "And that's supposed to make it the equivalent of Smithtown or Garden City? Methinks NOT!"
Not to bash the quality of life in the southern states, but just saying that a life down there, no matter HOW much lower the taxes were, would never be something we'd be happy or comfortable in.
"Getting what you pay for" is really a subjective thing that varies from person to person, whether the subject is the dollar amount on a tax bill or the dollar amount on a retail pricetag; in the end it all comes down to what it's worth to each person. Given the choice between paying LI taxes and living here, or paying far less in taxes and living elsewhere, it's a no-brainer for us: We'd much rather stay here.
But your friend was talking Long Island speak, that is defining "quality of life" things for you in terms of cost, shopping and food choices. When I lived on LI (Suffolk County) that's how I defined it, too (and throw in beaches).
I define quality of life differently, now. Your image of the south is the one Hollywood presents. Sure there are some lousy or boring places but you wouldn't want me to paint all of LI by Wyandanch or Remsenburg (zzzzzzz)
Let me tell you about my suburban Tennessee town of 27,500 and the surrounding area. My town is the biggest one in the county, population-wise and area wise (85 sq miles). Like LI, you have to drive everywhere. I have been here since May 2007. My town has a unique place in history related to WWII when the town began. Every person, young and old, who lives in the town is knowledgeable of the history. There are books and DVDs about my town. The history of my town is a major part of our annual festival. Another town in my county played a big role in school integration. Yet another town in my county played a major role in the history of coal mining. A fourth town in my county is a model community built by the TVA. I know all about this history because I've attended programs and events put on by a variety of people/clubs/organizations/businesses that ensure people in the area know their local history and celebrate it at events. How much do you and your children know about the history of Suffolk or Nassau County? Garden City? Sachem? East Quogue? I can tell you I knew next to nothing about my LI town/township/county history when I lived there.
My suburban town of 27,500 has a science museum, a children's museum, an indoor and outdoor pool, an art center, a civic music association, a sportsman's association, a playhouse, a community band, a symphony, community orchestra, two golf courses, tennis courts, a rowing course, a ballet, an arboretum, greenways for hiking/walking, a civic center, a number of parks, a public fishing pier, a skateboard park, and a lake, to name a few things.
My town has a national lab, that employees 4,200 and hosts approximately 3,000 guest researchers for shorter periods. Other big business in town are contractors. Science and innovation is a big part of my town. A lot of current and retired scientists, engineers and technology types live here. The national lab has 6 missions in the areas of neutron science, energy, high-performance computing, systems biology, materials science at the nanoscale, and national security.
My town has a new state of the art high school. I have no kids so I can't speak to school quality but they win all kinds of awards. In 2006 - 2007 a team of kids from my town won the Siemens national competition in science.
We have an annual two-day town festival (free) that features, in addition to typical fair stuff, a WWII re-enactment, a robot, a juried arts and crafts show, a heritage display and bus tours. Rowing regattas are held on our lake. We have golf tournaments, tennis tournaments, shooter, hunter, archer, fishing competitions and horse shows. We have a street painting fair (free), an Earth Day celebration (free), free concerts in the park, a 4th of July celebration (free) and a Christmas parade (free). We have had turtle races and cardboard boat regattas. What kind of diverse events are held in your specific town?
The town clubs and organizations are too numerous to mention. There are plenty of kid programs, too, especially in the summer. Photography is my hobby. I'm in the Camera Club. I think there are probably just as many clubs and organizations in your town. Not so sure about other towns on Long Island.
Personally, I take classes in a retiree program in my town. These aren't fluff retiree classes. I've been to lectures on things like State of the World and the rise of AFRICOM, Nuclear Nonproliferation Update, Defending Against Genetically Modified Organisms, Great Decisions (In American Foreign Policy), New Medicines, Photojournalism, etc. I've been to the top of a mountain with a TVA engineer to see and learn about wind turbines, to a culinary arts school to hear about their program, toured the back roads of the eastern part of the state, been to the National Lab and will be going on a three day trip to the Cumberland Gap for a living history event in the Fall. I'm in a nonfiction book group. The retiree program costs me $90 a year, 3 semesters, up to 5 classes per semester. Trips are extra. What kind of retiree programs do they have on Long Island?
I've been to 7 state parks (free) and 2 national parks (free) since I've been living here. I've been to a Garrison Weekend at a Fort (free), to a big multi day Fall Homecoming celebration (bluegrass music, Appalachian life) and a sheep shearing, to a Birds of Prey presentation (owls, eagle, kestrel) (free) sponsored by the National Parks Department. I'll be at a French and Indian war reenactment this weekend (free). I'm a stones throw from waterfalls, mountains and gorges...all free.
The first sit down restaurant I went to in my town served Chinese food.
If I was a city person (I'm not), downtown Knoxville is 25 miles away.
I live in an apartment, as I did in MD and Long Island. It's in a fairly new complex with amenities. It's (2b, 2b) twice as big as my LI apartment (1b, 1b) and costs $600 less per month (current rates - looked it up). My car insurance is $300 less per year than what I paid in MD (don't remember NY rates). My electric is half of my MD bill (remember I'm home more now as a retiree and live in a place twice as big) - last month $46 (with air conditioner on all day - never more than $80 one month in winter). I live within 3 miles of things I do regularly - gasoline was $3.79 last week. It has never been over $3.99. No state income tax (dividends and interest only) but high sales tax.
So I'm getting "quality of life" in the south and paying less for more than what I had in my LI town. The question is do you think you're getting an equivalent bang for your buck? I think if you lived in other places besides LI, you'd probably be able to assess it better because you'd have something to compare it to.
LauraC, actually both I and my SO have done MOST of the things on your list. Some things in our younger days and some as adults. By the way, while you lived on LI did you do any of the following: Visit the east end farms and/or wineries? Visit Sagamore Hill? Go whale-watching off Montauk Point? Visit the Cold Spring Harbor Fish Hatchery or the Lab? Attend the Shinnecock Powwow? Attend one of LI's professional or semi-pro sports events (LI Ducks hockey, LI Ducks baseball, NY Islanders)? Go fishing on a charter boat? Own your own boat? Go skiing on Bald Hill? Attend an open-air concert (which was usually free, btw) at Salisbury Park (now called Eisenhower Park)? Visit any of the nature preserves, such as the Pine Barrens you mentioned? Go to the auto races at either Freeport or Riverhead? Go on a Gold Coast house tour? True there are many people who either don't care about these things or have never bothered to find out everything that's here, but as Alexis says, that doesn't mean that LI'ers don't get as much "bang for our buck" as other areas of the country do.
AlexisT, I also was a history major at SB! I wonder if any of my old professors are still there: I had Dr. Stuart Semel and Dr. Kurt Bottigheimer for British History, and an elderly white-haired gent whose name totally escapes me for Egyptian and Greco-Roman History.
I also graduated from Stony Brook. I lived in Manorville and East Quogue as an adult and lived in Brentwood in the late 50s and 60s. I was an active member of the Islander booster club and went to games regularly (but I didn't live in Nassau County) (not free) in the 80s so I don't consider that a hometown thing. I saw Long Island Duck games (not free) as a kid. Took the ferry (not free) to fire Island beaches. Paid a toll to go to Robert Moses (not free). I've been fishing on a charter boat (not free) more than once. I was in a fishing club and fished both salt and fresh water on LI. I went to Jones Beach for concerts (but I didn't live in that part of LI) (not free). I was to other (not free) concerts. I was to the Pine Barrens many times since that was my neck of the woods. Looking at houses or skiing doesn't interest me. I've been to Teddy Roosevelt's place (not in my county) (can't remember if I paid) and the Vanderbuilt place and planetarium (not free). I lived in East Quogue so I spent time on the east end and was to the wineries (not free) once. I believe I was to the Indian reservation when I was a kid (not free).
Okay, other than me going fishing on my own and taking a drive to the docks of Montauk, it looks like I paid admission or tolls for everything else so we can't say my/your tax dollars are playing a major role in things to do.
This reminds me, we don't pay tolls on the Interstate here. In fact, my move from MD to Tennessee - a no tolls trip.
Just because you pay to do something doesn't mean that taxes aren't also involved. And a lot of your examples are things that are totally private in any case (find me a public, free charter boat or winery!) Many things are partly subsidized even when we do pay. You can also limit those costs--an Empire Passport gets you free entry to almost all state parks for a year for $59. (Sure it would be nice if Jones Beach parking were free, but part of the reason for charging is traffic control, so I can't see it changing.)
You seem to have spent a lot of time looking for things to do where you live now. Did you spend the same amount of effort on LI? From your original description it sounds like either 1) you didn't or 2) you expected them to be served up to you. I know that I see plenty of listings in Newsday about things to do, private and public. If you go to Newsday's home page, there's a whole section called "Explore Long Island".
Dr. Bottingheimer was still there when I was a student--graduated in 2000! I had several classes with him because British history was my main field. Lovely man.
Omigosh, I'm not even going to WHISPER how many years there are between your graduation and mine! LOL
And to my great embarassment, I realized about a half-hour after writing my post that I got his first name wrong: It's KARL, of course, not Kurt.
I did an Independent Study project with him during my senior year... now if I could just remember what the subject of it was (told you it was a long time ago! )
British History of the Tudor and Stuart periods was my major field also, with a subspecialty in Egypt, 18th Dynasty.
The thing about the budgets is that they're fundamentally irrelevant. The vast majority of a district's outlay is from state mandates, which have to be paid whether the budget is approved or not. If the budget is rejected, your taxes still go up (just by a little bit less) and the kids get fewer 'extras' (I don't consider art, music, sports etc to be extras). The biggest single expense for a district is teacher salaries, and the contract is signed and set; voters have no say (and I personally believe teachers deserve what they get anyway).
The changes that would need to be made to lower taxes are at a much higher level--reducing the number of districts, simplifying local government, reducing corruption (still exists), reducing Albany gridlock, cutting back on Albany pork projects.
And ultimately, given NYC-area salaries and costs, we're going to have to accept that we can only cut taxes so much. People in the South pay less because they get less.
I pay about half the property tax in Florida, but I also have HALF THE PROPERTY. The have a property tax cut on the ballot here, which they cannot afford to pay for, so they cut schools budgets and cut staff. The schools? Forget it. I am a TA. I wonder how many TA's on LI have to show the teacher in the classroom where Hawaii is on a map? Excuse me, it's not in the ATLANTIC OCEAN.
It's totally unbelievable here. Yes, you get what you are willing to pay for. They are unwilling to pay for ANYTHING in Florida, unless it is for show for the tourists.
Having lived on Long Island (Suffolk County) for most of my life, then in Maryland and now in Tennessee, I don't think you are getting all that much on LI in the area of "things to do" for what you pay to live there. .... If your town/township/county throws a fair, what's distinctive at the fair that makes it a fair that couldn't be held in any other town/township/county?
One point I should have made when comparing the things available to people on LI versus what's available in other parts of the country is this: Yes, you can find any one, or even several, of the things we have on L.I. in other parts of the country... but how many other parts of the country have ALL of these things all within a 100-mile radius? Including of course one of the biggest cities in the world (okay, it's not within an hour of the Forks, I'll admit that!). Honestly I don't gauge the value of any town or area based on how many things are free (and we're not rich by any means) rather than fee-based. Most of the things available to Long Islanders have NEVER been free, even back in the 50s; and most of the things that were free then, still are today. I honestly can't think of anything that was free when I was a kid or a teenager that is fee-based today. There were always tolls on the approaches to Jones Beach, for instance; nowadays the tollboots are gone but instead a parking fee is collected at the entrance to the lots (which is a SAVINGS for those who use Ocean Parkway as part of their daily commute!).
Anyway, my point being that you can find some or perhaps even many of the same things that are on LI in other parts of the country but where else can you find ALL of these things in such close proximity AND combined with what is really an EXTREMELY moderate and temperate climate compared to most of the rest of the country? California comes closest to LI in terms of comparable things-to-do in the same travel radius, but does LI have to worry about earthquakes? No. About huge wildfires every summer? No. About the scorching heat and drought of the southwest and southern states? No. Serious hurricane threats EVERY summer? No. Winters that commonly bring several FEET of snow? No. Tornadoes? Very rarely and nothing like what they have down in the "Tornado Alley" states. As a matter of fact, when was the last time we had a severe hailstorm? I can't remember one. We get the occasional nor'easter (though not for the past several years) and the last hurricane to give us any trouble was 23 (TWENTY-THREE!) years ago (Gloria, 1985).
True, these things have nothing to do with taxes directly, but it all combines to make Long Island a desirable place to live for MANY people, and such places ALWAYS carry high cost of living price tags, taxes being a big part of that because property values are high in places like these.
Last edited by totallyfrazzled; 08-09-2008 at 06:33 PM..
So, you were ignorant and many people on LI are--I'm not sure waht this has to do with taxes. Or whether LI is culturally distinctive or makes an effort to exploit that. The different towns and counties (not to mention other groups) DO put on many events. When I was in school, we were taken to the Sunken Forest and the Pine Barrens, as well as other places on Long Island. SUNY Stony Brook offers a Long Island history course (I majored in history at SB). Long Island wineries promote their products and some of the farms (that are left) are starting to as well.
I spent 4 years in London, and I can tell you that my local council was not at the level I was used to.
Another SB History major here (though my current job has nothing to do with the major). I wanted to take that LI History course, but never was able to, due to scheduling conflicts, heard very good things about the course.
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or Remsenburg (zzzzzzz) 
I wonder if any of my old professors are still there: I had Dr. Stuart Semel and Dr. Kurt Bottigheimer for British History, and an elderly white-haired gent whose name totally escapes me for Egyptian and Greco-Roman History.
LOL 
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You certainly get less
