So what happened to Holyoke? (Boston, Worcester: how much, houses, to buy)

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by IWLC

You keep talking as though there is some entity that is creating wealth in this area. There isn't and hasn't been since the age of manufacturing. Where is the Silicon Valley equivalent in the Pioneer valley? I don't care what the age, any wealthy people in the area give Holyoke a wide berth.

But this is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creating wealth. It starts with the creative classes. You have to attract those for a neighborhood to turn around. Then invest in the closely tied innovation economy, where wealth is now created and attract and retain young talent.



What is your solution?

Originally Posted by IWLC

Springfield has labored under the naive assumption for a long time that they can attract yuppies. When they built Monarch place they believed that young professionals would be flocking to live downtown and every available apartment building was turned into condos. They didn't and investors bought up the condos and rented them, often as Section 8.

You attract yuppies not by building places like that. Or indeed by just building stuff at all. That is indeed poor management.

Originally Posted by IWLC

Logo designers? you're stretching a bit there.

Not at all. Font and logo design are artistic professions. Industrial design is art.

Originally Posted by IWLC

Anyway, I won't read the book and nothing that relates to Coastal California or Greenwich village is applicable to Western Mass - nothing.

Not true. The templates are the same. Pittsburgh and Milwaukee are following it, and doing rather well, and they were once industrial cities.

Originally Posted by IWLC

I like areas with vibes, and no harm in having those delusions, but I can absolutely assure you that Holyoke will never be much more than it has ever been.

Well, if you just want to give up and not try, then there is nothing more to say.

[FCMA]

Originally Posted by IWLC

Did you forget that this thread is about Holyoke, not the Berkshires?

Nope but other parts of Western Mass have been mentioned, so I went to Greenfield for examples and threw in a mention of the Berkshires for good measure. Your earlier post seemed to paint Western Mass to be categorically paltry as an arts hub, which is a mischaracterization.

[IWLC]

Originally Posted by timberline742

But this is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creating wealth. It starts with the creative classes. You have to attract those for a neighborhood to turn around. Then invest in the closely tied innovation economy, where wealth is now created and attract and retain young talent.



Well, if you just want to give up and not try, then there is nothing more to say.

Again, you have an odd idea about creating wealth. You must be a very wealthy person to have such knowledge that everyone else has missed. Wealth comes from industry, technology, financial institutions. Unless a company on the level of Google would decide to move here, it's not going to happen. With all the places in the country, Holyoke would be the last place to choose to move. Philadelphia and Milwaukee are major cities with industry and metropolitan downtowns. You keep mentioning big cities and what is happening there, in relation to Holyoke. Apart from the Highlands, Holyoke is basically a run down, worn out and unattractive old mill town where every other building is an office for a non profit. The time I went to the 'Holyoke Arts Festival' said it all for me. The entire entry approach to the park was given over to non profits with booths promoting their needle exchange and mental health services. This is the mindset of Holyoke and THAT'S what Holyoke is all about - managing the dysfunction of it's residents.



It's not for me to try or to give up, but feel free. Personally, I love places loaded with alternative businesses (which Holyoke is not). I actually thought, long ago that Race Street would make a great alternative area. I used to drive around those old industrial areas and imagine what each building could be - same with Chicopee's downtown area. But, I don't believe it will ever be, because, frankly it would have been by now.

I'm REALLY done with this now.

[FCMA]

You heard the man. He has no imagination or vision of how places with abundant hydro power and a constant pool of nearby university brainpower and creative folks and acre upon acre of densely zoned vacant land might transform over time given the metropolitan C.O.L. diaspora and s/he is REALLY done.

[in_newengland]

My 2 cents FWIW: Gentrification CAN happen primarily due to the arts but there are other reasons for gentrification. For instance, Northampton became gentrified because of several factors. Mainly, Northampton was "discovered" sometime in the eaerly to mid 1980s by wealthy NYers who wanted a second home in "the country."

And they wanted "the country" to include culture and education. Smith College (and the other colleges) supplied that need. A few apartment buildings were purchased (by a few NYers) and renovated for people like them. Developers made big money. Trendy restaurants were started--Fitzwilly's was one of the first. Thorne's Market was developed for trendy shopping. Ordinary people were priced out when the new people moved in. Wealth was created for the developers and business owners. Along with the mix came the arts--starting in some of the "bombed out" old buildings. Restaurants, trendy shops, the arts, renovated condos/lofts attracted more and more people. and on it went.

Easthampton is becoming more gentrified. The arts made Easthampton more attractive not only to artists but also to people who could no longer afford to live in Northampton. But the main reason people moved to Easthampton was that it was a cheap alternative to the attractions of Northampton.

If the trend were to continue, (people from elsewhere coming to WMass), it's possible that Easthampton could seriously start to overflow and then people might be attracted to Holyoke as an affordable option.

But the trend to keep expanding and gentrifying may end. There is probably a limit to the number of people who will move to WMass. The WMass economy cannot sustain them. Holyoke had factory jobs but, of course, factory jobs are gone. So we have a small (by EMass standards) city with rotted out buildings, good location, and no jobs. Due to low rents, the next wave of starving artists is moving in. But that doesn't necessarily mean that wealth will follow.

Wealth can live in parts of Amherst, Northampton or down in the Longmeadow area. The starving artists can sell their wares at craft fairs, galleries, and shows; they can travel to the wealth; the wealth doesn't have to travel to them.

In a nutshell--The arts can attract people, but I think people move and places gentrify for plenty of other reasons too.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by IWLC

Again, you have an odd idea about creating wealth. You must be a very wealthy person to have such knowledge that everyone else has missed. Wealth comes from industry, technology, financial institutions. Unless a company on the level of Google would decide to move here, it's not going to happen. With all the places in the country, Holyoke would be the last place to choose to move. Philadelphia and Milwaukee are major cities with industry and metropolitan downtowns. You keep mentioning big cities and what is happening there, in relation to Holyoke. Apart from the Highlands, Holyoke is basically a run down, worn out and unattractive old mill town where every other building is an office for a non profit. The time I went to the 'Holyoke Arts Festival' said it all for me. The entire entry approach to the park was given over to non profits with booths promoting their needle exchange and mental health services. This is the mindset of Holyoke and THAT'S what Holyoke is all about - managing the dysfunction of it's residents.

It's not for me to try or to give up, but feel free. Personally, I love places loaded with alternative businesses (which Holyoke is not). I actually thought, long ago that Race Street would make a great alternative area. I used to drive around those old industrial areas and imagine what each building could be - same with Chicopee's downtown area. But, I don't believe it will ever be, because, frankly it would have been by now.

I'm REALLY done with this now.

I never mentioned Philly. I mentioned Pittsburgh, which was a wreck 30 years ago. Then the creative classes moved in because of the low cost, and because they promoted it, and it's turned around. It's booming now.


But you're clearly not reading what I'm writing, nor have you studied the issue at all. You seem to think technology (innovation) is separate from the creative classes and that's separate from the arts, when they're all interwoven. You seem to think a successful artist = one that makes their living from selling fine arts to rich people, and the other artists are selling at craft fairs. You also seem to think I said arts is all you need and once that is there, it just happens. None of those things are true. You just have no read what I've said nor read (nor apparently have seen) how artists and the creative classes drive the turning around of neighborhoods and regions.


Lastly, I never said anything about getting businesses to MOVE to Holyoke. Same for Springfield. It isn't about getting businesses to move, its about creating and growing them. That is where wealth is created.

Originally Posted by in_newengland

In a nutshell--The arts can attract people, but I think people move and places gentrify for plenty of other reasons too.

Good post. Yeah, lots of things I went to Northampton for in the 80s through 90s moved to mill buildings in Easthampton.


But I never said, nor implied, arts is all that is needed. At all. Just that it was a start. The culture (arts) of Northampton made the area attractive to lots of those people looking for second homes. That's not enough, and nothing I said implied its enough, but making an area a desirable place to live (arts/culture) is a critical step to turning it around. No its not enough, no one said it was, but its a first step. Then comes harnessing the brainpower, investing in accelerators and incubators, growing home grown businesses that can create wealth and decent paying jobs in an area where people want to live (because of the arts/culture). It's not one thing, I never said it was, but it starts somewhere... There is no point and no way to create those businesses and wealth when you have an area that is undesirable for brainpower to live (primarily young educated individuals) and these people flock to places with good culture for very understandable reasons.

[mdovell]

Originally Posted by IWLC

Expecting Holyoke to emulate San Francisco, Boston and Manhattan - areas with the highest incomes in the country with arts events is a bit much.

This is getting to be interesting.

Boston does not really have high income as half the population makes 35K or less. SF and Manhattan are by far way above Boston.

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/...ss-than-35000/

"The study found that 9.4 percent of residents make between $25,000 and $34,999 a year while 18.5 percent of residents make between $10,000 and $24,999 a year. A whopping 20.8 percent of residents make less than $10,000 a year."

Highest in the country? Yeah right. The thing is when people think Boston what they really mean is the Boston region and that of course lumps in Cambridge which is totally different. You could try tying Cambridge to East St. Louis if you want and that could raise incomes easily. Boston is not a rich city, not anywhere close. Can you make the argument that there are high income earners in Boston? Yes of course but they don't live there. Boston Public Schools has a 72% graduation rate, even Springfield has a better rate!

Originally Posted by IWLC

You'd have to show me examples of people from out of town coming for all those shows, theatrical and musical events. Unless it's at the high level of Manhattan, the patrons of the level of 'arts' produced in places like Western Mass are friends and family. Perhaps the symphony draws some out of towners, and of course events like Paradise City are of very high quality - but the majority of the exhibitors are from other areas anyway, but what else? As far as shows like those that come into Symphony Hall or the MMC, those shows leave town with the profits they generate. Just having bodies in town doesn't mean economic benefit.

You are aware that MGM is currently bringing in six million a day in the slot machines...right? Do you honestly think that money is all local?

https://www.masslive.com/news/index....ts_over_2.html

"The casino profited from slots gambling at a rate of 9.55 percent for the month, as a total of $190,008,079.79 was wagered on slot machines."

190 MILLION. There's no way you can make the argument the Springfield region let alone city had 190 million just sitting around in peoples pockets. That's 6.3 million a day. Think about that for a moment. I know affluent towns in mass that don't even have the budget of half of that, some not even a third. Does this mean that's profit.

I don't think you also understand is that there's a fair amount of restaurants and bars in the area that do benefit when things happen. Ice hockey season started last week so of course when they play you get more people in. Just like at bars in general when there's teams in the playoffs there's more people there, it's like that in the rest of the state as well. I'm not saying everything is happening at MGM but there's been general consolidation in the region to the area. What about Six Flags? What about the brew festivals? What about white lion Wednesday?

Why are there so many cars with NY plates here? How do I know that? I can go to the drop off area at MGM and see them try to pull in. Then add in the rail factory because no one in their right mind does manufacturing in eastern mass (land cost too much that could be used for housing). Then the rail that connects the area to hartford and new haven. People work and live in different areas so it's hard to really put a fixation of stats in one place and assume it stays there. The very fact that there's Yale students now living in Springfield is evidence of this.

Originally Posted by timberline742

You just have it flat backwards. There are loads of books, articles, and studies on how the creative classes are completely woven in the framework of the modern economy and a driver of gentrification. Ignore that reality and remain behind in the modern economy.

I agree with you as I've read Richard Florida (not his latest though). But the causes and effects of gentrification can be highly debated to say the least. I don't think it's a bad thing but it's more about the speed that it happens. Three years ago there was a community meeting about it in Springfield. I told people pretty much there'd be changes but not all listened. Prices are going up at a good 10%+ for housing, empty lots are gradually being redeveloped and the pace of life has picked up.

[quote=IWLC;53401077]Gentrification requires money and there isn't any in Holyoke. You are welcome to look up income demographics if you like - right here in CD./QUOTE]

Not exactly true. Basically people get priced out of an area and have to drive further for work. Then they might decide what if they just get something "closer". So you have your 128 belt, your 495 belt etc. For the most part people live with what they afford. But I would argue that committing only goes so far. I took Amtrak to new haven the other day. Certainly better than ct rail. Leather seats, wifi, outlets, decent bathroom, reclining chairs, lights etc. This rail also goes to holyoke, northampton and greenfield.

As things develop developers look for other areas that are cheaper. UMass Amherst is by far much larger than UMass Boston. Why? You had the land be cheaper so it was made. There's no way UMass Boston could ever be anywhere remotely close to the size of UMass Amherst. No way no how. If you price things high enough you eventually have less opportunities and fewer buyers. Basic economy of scale. Of course riches are in the niches and I get that but for a broad base you pretty much have to lower prices for a mass market.

Art does matter. I was just in New Haven and I think it does have a good vibe too it.

Originally Posted by IWLC

You keep talking as though there is some entity that is creating wealth in this area. There isn't and hasn't been since the age of manufacturing. Where is the Silicon Valley equivalent in the Pioneer valley? I don't care what the age, any wealthy people in the area give Holyoke a wide berth.


Springfield has labored under the naive assumption for a long time that they can attract yuppies. When they built Monarch place they believed that young professionals would be flocking to live downtown and every available apartment building was turned into condos. They didn't and investors bought up the condos and rented them, often as Section 8.


Logo designers? you're stretching a bit there.


Anyway, I won't read the book and nothing that relates to Coastal California or Greenwich village is applicable to Western Mass - nothing.


I like areas with vibes, and no harm in having those delusions, but I can absolutely assure you that Holyoke will never be much more than it has ever been.

VVM is a good start and frankly again people go to where they can find work and prices that fit the budget. Why would the Green Computing center be in holyoke and not in the 128 belt? Because the electrical prices were half.

As for monarch place I think you confused it. that's the commercial center with the fountain. I think you meant Chestnut Towers. It's easy to get a bit confused because they are pretty tall buildings.

Here was a pretty good report a few years back
https://www.masslive.com/news/index....sed_to_be.html

Well a new manager made changes and about 55 million is going to be invested.
https://www.masslive.com/news/index...._park_apa.html
I know personally they kicked out anyone homeless and any drug materials are immediately tossed. They audited the section 8 roles and if anyone was late or didn't qualify they were evicted.

Funny you mention logo designers because I have a high school alumni that did that. He's been involved in social media for about ten years now.


Art can sell. You can make a living on it but if you keep think you need something physical then you are trapped in the 20th century. Selling something as a graphic is still a pretty large industry. Same as selling music. You can be a popular band and not have a base these days. You can sell though the internet and ship. I know of retailers that did half and half. The store is a showroom and you can buy most products there but they don't change (only the prices) so they ship worldwide during the other half week. If you think a place cannot change then explain Hudson NY and how the art scene there came into the picture?

You cannot always measure things until you really get in the weeds. On a side note with retail many people believe that the number of cars dictates the number of customers. During Black Friday there's satellite companies that are referenced for this. Well it doesn't work out that way. In Rockland Mass the Home depot lot looks half full all the time. Why? Because there's a bus lot across the street. Home depot parking is free and the lot charges. Unless you lived near the area you might not know that if you just focused on the home depot lot. Reliable? Yes. Valid? No. Read some Nassim Taleb.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by mdovell

Art can sell. You can make a living on it but if you keep think you need something physical then you are trapped in the 20th century.
.

Indeed. One record label I worked with who was really booming in the 2000s (a little pre download boom) was putting out tons of stuff. Great cash flow, good profit. But, things totally didn't add up for me. We had a good talk (I had worked with one of his bands in the 90s) about how he did it... it was licensing. He was licensing to film soundtracks, skateboard and snowboard videos, etc. That was by far his largest cash flow. Not selling LPs or CDs. Shirts/merch was actually ahead of those.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by handy99

I haven't been the new Casino but my take would be that it would be crazy for folks to come from very far away. Foxwoods and Moheghan Sun are vastly superior and closer to many. .

How do you know they're superior if you haven't been?

[mdovell]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Indeed. One record label I worked with who was really booming in the 2000s (a little pre download boom) was putting out tons of stuff. Great cash flow, good profit. But, things totally didn't add up for me. We had a good talk (I had worked with one of his bands in the 90s) about how he did it... it was licensing. He was licensing to film soundtracks, skateboard and snowboard videos, etc. That was by far his largest cash flow. Not selling LPs or CDs. Shirts/merch was actually ahead of those.

It might be kinda off topic but look up the book Zero Marginal Cost Society. There's a fair amount that make money on Amazon. Ebooks turn into physical books which can also be audio books. Online classes are another venue. The best thing I can also say is the 1,000 true fans idea. If you have just 1,000 fans that can pay say $10 on you a month that's 120K a year. You don't need millions of followers. There's plenty that make a living online. One teacher at a community college has made about 400K in the past ten years with excel videos. Another I know with finance she makes 3.5k per video. The marketing is different and I'm not saying it is easy by any means. If it's less than 40 hours that isn't the point you can't exactly measure it in just 40/hours a week, it's simply if the work is done or not.

I was just at the tribal casinos the other week. They certainly still do business but I'd recommend a few things.

1) Go smoke free or at least go to vaping. I can't stand eating food even near that smoke. It's like 1993 hit me in the face...hard

2) Get new slot machines, some of these are 15 years old

3) Get someone to inspect the elevators, there's no inspection certificate. There's not a snowballs chance in hell I'm staying more than a few floors up without an inspection being done

4) Can you hire more locals? ..really. Say what you will about MGM but at least the people came from around there. The tribes remind me of cape businesses that beg for visa holders. I've never had an issue in springfield with accents. The tribes on the other hand

5) Get retailers that are more for younger people. Maybe something for geeks (yes I know there's the convention but still).

Back to holyoke there is cubit and frankly I think one of the mills could be used for a NYC Sleep No More like production. Heck a steampunk or victorian fair could be pretty nice. Worcesters done a bit of this and it was pretty good all things considered.