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Old 03-19-2012, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
2,945 posts, read 2,943,696 times
Reputation: 4053

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I grew up in Michigan and went to college in Michigan.

Regarding 'liberals', it sounds like we have different definitions of 'liberal'.

My definition of 'Liberals' are people who believe in gay rights, strongly support public transportation initiatives, pro-education, want healthcare for all citizens, like to watch NPR, appear off-put by guns, hesitant about war, etc.

Generally speaking, people who vote 'blue' in places like Michigan, are usually what we call 'Blue Dog Democrats'. They just simply do not have liberal agendas or interests whatsoever, by any stretch.

YOu seem to understand Michgians politics better than most people. You are dead on about the blue dog democrat thing here. In short Michigan is a socially conservative state where people support labor unions. For this reason they vote in democrats, but balk at liberal democratic agendas like gay rights, gun control and socialized medicine. As the democratic party moves to the left they are in danger of losing Michigan and other midwest states. (just like they lost the south in the 40s and 50s) Michigan is not a blue state at all, its purple. Think of the average shop worker that everyone who lives here knows many of. They tend to drive big pickups, go hunting in the fall, tend to be churchgoing, tend to complain about welfare and they absolutely are opposed to things like gay rights. These are the people that actually vote for democrats. Everyone eles is much further to the right that that. Ann Arbor is the only true liberal bastion in the state. Its like a piece of Massachusetts that broke off and floated west. lol
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:36 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,018 posts, read 8,246,761 times
Reputation: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
YOu seem to understand Michgians politics better than most people. You are dead on about the blue dog democrat thing here. In short Michigan is a socially conservative state where people support labor unions. For this reason they vote in democrats, but balk at liberal democratic agendas like gay rights, gun control and socialized medicine. As the democratic party moves to the left they are in danger of losing Michigan and other midwest states. (just like they lost the south in the 40s and 50s) Michigan is not a blue state at all, its purple. Think of the average shop worker that everyone who lives here knows many of. They tend to drive big pickups, go hunting in the fall, tend to be churchgoing, tend to complain about welfare and they absolutely are opposed to things like gay rights. These are the people that actually vote for democrats. Everyone eles is much further to the right that that. Ann Arbor is the only true liberal bastion in the state. Its like a piece of Massachusetts that broke off and floated west. lol
I wonder if both of you might be stereotyping a little too much. In fact I know you are,otherwise I, as a lifelong Demacrat , would not feel like I do when I read your posts.
First off, at one time the South was all Democrats,it was not that long ago erher . Johnson lost the South with the civil rights issues. We all knew it would turn out that way, so did He, but it was the right thing to do.
I think your labling People whe way you do is over the top, it's slanted too much about SE Michigan. There plenty of places where people are Dems. Not just Ann Arbor. I think the issues today are more defined than in the past to be so simplistic . Just about any city thar has a large academic culture will produce more Liberals. I see little difference between a Demacrat and a Liberal. The difference in my way of thinking is on the left side of Politics, we are all Liberals. The difference on the right is a little more blurred , and at the same time more defined ,a liberal would almost never watch Fox News, but a person on the right will tune in MSNBC, often.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere extremely awesome
1,635 posts, read 974,171 times
Reputation: 1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by detwahDJ View Post
Are you using the classical "liberal" definition, or the Carl Rove dictionary rewrite? If right-wing media labels someone a liberal it just means someone to the left of fascism.
Another Fox misrepresentation is that the terms "Democrat" and "liberal" are synonymous and they trot either one out as it suits their purpose-of-the-moment.
Is Michigan a blue state? It appears that many who vote do so against their own interests based upon the "information" they receive from the dominant media (such as seniors on medicare and SS voting Republican). Yep, some believe that Democrats want to destroy these programs.
I'm talking about this survey, which is all self-identification:

Mississippi Rates as the Most Conservative U.S. State

And this one:

Conservatives Remain the Largest Ideological Group in U.S.

So either: 1) there are a bunch of people who are liberal that don't identify as such, or 2) a bunch of people who vote Democrat that don't consider themselves liberal. Judging by the poll numbers, I'd say that #2 is the more likely option.

Therefore, if somebody ran on an ideologically pure self-identified liberal platform, they would get crushed, Karl Rove's view notwithstanding. But most Democrats don't run on that platform.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
6,873 posts, read 3,511,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Michigan is a Blue State? How?

I'm always surprised that MI generally goes blue in the general election. to be the anomoly.
As a native that was born and raised, I feel confident in saying that Michigan is populated by people that are hard-working, have a sense of humor, and are resourceful. We may listen to good ol' Rush, and then laugh over how anyone could be so over the top outrageous later, over a beer or a cup of coffee. We want to see our taxes spent on public works that we can enjoy, and realize that the communities needs are our needs.

At the same time, we have no compunction about running out shysters and grifters on the next "rail."

We are smart enough to know when some fat, pork-bellied politician that drives his fancy car (that we cannot afford) comes to us telling us he wants to improve our life that he has no concern for us, or the US.

When they show up with a knowledge of what we face, and put our hard-earned tax dollars on the line to improve our ability to help ourselves, we vote for them. So far, when the rubber hits the road, Michigan is there -- driving for the future.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,018 posts, read 8,246,761 times
Reputation: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbmsu01 View Post
I'm talking about this survey, which is all self-identification:

Mississippi Rates as the Most Conservative U.S. State

And this one:

Conservatives Remain the Largest Ideological Group in U.S.

So either: 1) there are a bunch of people who are liberal that don't identify as such, or 2) a bunch of people who vote Democrat that don't consider themselves liberal. Judging by the poll numbers, I'd say that #2 is the more likely option.

Therefore, if somebody ran on an ideologically pure self-identified liberal platform, they would get crushed, Karl Rove's view notwithstanding. But most Democrats don't run on that platform.
Thats why politicization always goes to the middle of the road...if anyone wants to get elected. What they really think is hard to say, we may never know. Clinton is a good example. he ran for local and state office as an idealist,..and found it did not work. Bill Clinton, did not get the name slick willy for nothing. he knew ( and still does) how to charm the people who will vote for him. If it offends some of his ideals, so be it. what he is and was doing is for the better good. Mostly I would agree what he has done, Was for the better good of the people, but, you first must set up the questions and answers so what you say is what the people want to hear. The GOP has a hard time doing that, and its not because they are telling the truth. What they are telling is what the Far right says and the war machine people along with the 1 per cent that always knows what is best for the people. Not what they themselves want or do privately. Its the Conservative outlook on life and their personal comfort along with greed, that controls what they truly think basically, they are mean spirited unkind people who would find little reason not to kick someone when they are down. All for one, they do not as a group think of ideals and a better world like the liberals think.( even when the GOP and the DC were turned around) Its always been that way. This is the reason elected officials tell the people what is best for them . Just read a reply if you have contacted your GOP rep.....they all drink from the same tank, " whats best for the people, " One of the reasons I find it hard to be friends or even talk to any of them, even those that were of the same thinking a few years ago. Its only when the people as a mass stand up and say, " I have had enough, I have been screwed way to many times, now I am going to do something about it" its happening now in other Countries, and its not a pleasant ending for anyone until the Political machine as it is, is over , changed at the hands of the people who have had enough.The voting booth alone will not do the job, its much more than that.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: west mich
5,664 posts, read 2,718,209 times
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^^Seems like definitions have been skewed by a preponderance of "conservative" talk, which is not traditional conservative, but further right toward fascism (corporate).
Fox and its various contributors have called Clinton, with his balanced budget, NAFTA, etc a member of the "far left". Bush was called "too liberal". Reagan would be snubbed by today's Republican Party.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:02 PM
 
5,492 posts, read 6,022,391 times
Reputation: 5478
"Blue Dog Democrats" are slitting their economic throats by voting Repulican pure and simple. I don't have a dog in the fight and at some level don't care if people are too stupid to see it. There was a reason labor unions (never a member) came about and why rich republicans fought them so hard.
Typical human beings to have to relearn and relive the cycle all over again.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,018 posts, read 8,246,761 times
Reputation: 2229
I would find it very hard to resend our child labor laws. . One of the reason I so not shop at Wallmart , ever ! I know this has been brought up by Newet , but I am sure just to keep some attention on him, as he is loosing fast. The Town Mormon will be the candidate of the right wing party.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Lansing Metro
2,775 posts, read 2,952,981 times
Reputation: 3531
Quote:
All for one, they do not as a group think of ideals and a better world like the liberals think.
I disagree. A lot of conservatives have a very idealistic view of how the country should be run. Believe it or not, many of them really believe that economic freedom and limited government will allow for the greatest level of success for the highest number of people. They believe that government "help" is actually hurting the very same people it is supposed to help.

The ideals are different, but conservatives are still idealistic. Well... I am, at least.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:58 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,018 posts, read 8,246,761 times
Reputation: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by michigan83 View Post
I disagree. A lot of conservatives have a very idealistic view of how the country should be run. Believe it or not, many of them really believe that economic freedom and limited government will allow for the greatest level of success for the highest number of people. They believe that government "help" is actually hurting the very same people it is supposed to help.

The ideals are different, but conservatives are still idealistic. Well... I am, at least.
Us Liberals do tend to think outside the box. Ever notice that most Liberals seem to be more creative thinkers ? I do know that's one of the reasons I am a Liberal. Today we are called Progressives also. I would hate to think what would the World be like, and how happy I would be if I were forced to join the other side. What scary thought ! A very large per cent of Authors, painters, actors, teachers are of the Liberal faith. Vary good thing, without us, the world would be very gray, even more Wars, gun toting shooters, crime,restricted liberties depending on your race and up bringing . Fundamentalist religion would be a required activity. There would be more poor and hungry , more street people, it would be a sorry place living under a rule where a so called smaller, but more aggressive government in our personal lives along with a under ground marriage with big business. Yes, I can think of more too., like strict racial lines never to be crossed, with less freedoms....come to think of it , this sounds a lot like Germany in the 30s, very scary indeed !
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