[Driller1]

Originally Posted by poltergiest

how about a single payer system, yep social medicine and just get rid of the health care insurance scam artists. We are already 2/3 social medicine now, with the VA, Medicare, Medicaid and the like. Lets just go the rest of the way and fix the problem. I am not sure I agree with driller about wet lands. there have been many problems with people filling in wet lands and destroying natures water system. It has caused many problems, with flooding other areas after wet lands have been filled in. One thing I think should be done for wetlands is that if you are restricted from using your land because of wet lands act, then you should be property tax exempted on that land. If you are restricted then you should not have to pay tax on something you can not fully use.

We can not afford social medicine at this time.

[hoohoohaa13]

Originally Posted by darstar

I will admit , us lefties , have been tooting our horn a bit lately. Its just all that pent up anger , frustration , and down right revenge , for the last eight years. The lest you guys can do , is help out , and , join in to repair the mess.
In return , I promise to be less critical , of the conservatives. We maybe on a new road to less partisan politics , ...sounds refreshing to me. You might want to work on Rush a little too , let him know the old days are over ,.

Do you agree with what Rachel Maddow and olbermann say? I don't listen to Rush, and I don't agree with everything he says. But you can put me on the right side. Again, it is too much this side versus that side, republicans did this, democrats did that. The least "we" can do is do what we think is right. And that does mean helping to repair whatever mess there is, made by both sides. That does not mean jumping into whatever Obama says is right.

Just remember, your revenge isn't on some etherreal "conservative". it is on real people, people you see and deal with everyday. Not agreeing with my position doesn't bother me. When you want revenge for some political bent that I believe will threaten the future of my children (and I do understand the argument of Bush destroying families futures), I will act quickly against any ideology or agenda. Not the person,the agenda.

And when the b*tching stops between sides, maybe real economic reform can happen

[darstar]

Originally Posted by hoohoohaa13

Do you agree with what Rachel Maddow and olbermann say? I don't listen to Rush, and I don't agree with everything he says. But you can put me on the right side. Again, it is too much this side versus that side, republicans did this, democrats did that. The least "we" can do is do what we think is right. And that does mean helping to repair whatever mess there is, made by both sides. That does not mean jumping into whatever Obama says is right.

Just remember, your revenge isn't on some etherreal "conservative". it is on real people, people you see and deal with everyday. Not agreeing with my position doesn't bother me. When you want revenge for some political bent that I believe will threaten the future of my children (and I do understand the argument of Bush destroying families futures), I will act quickly against any ideology or agenda. Not the person,the agenda.

And when the b*tching stops between sides, maybe real economic reform can happen

Rachel is a very smart lady , she does a good job , so does Obermann , but , he does stretch the envelope a bit, part of his entertainment factor.... yes , I watch MSNBC , all day , off and on , in between CNBC , so I do get perspective. Right now , I am watching CBC , for , another perspective., and , when I am bored , I tune in CNN , L. Dobbs has another twist.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Driller1

We can not afford social medicine at this time.

Can we afford not to have socialized medicine? It isn't as though our current system is thrifty or consuming a smaller percentage of GDP than those of other first world nations.

[Drover]

After reading this thread I don't figure Michigan's fortunes are going to improfve substantially any time soon.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Cliffie

I'm not sure how long it will take for us to bounce back -- this is a pretty deep trough we're in -- but it could take us between 5 and 10 years to get all the way back to where we were. If all goes well. I just hope we don't go back into that fool's-paradise mode that caused the real estate bubble in this state.

Am I the only one has doubts that Michigan and the U.S. will "bounce back" at all?

[wanderer74]

Right now unfortunately I can't see why any company would want to locate in Michigan, between its high tax rate, population with a lower than average educational attainment, and the way we cling to unions. If we can reform those three factors, maybe it will turn around. The jobs have to be here for the college graduates to stay, the state has to be friendlier to business in terms of taxes, and people have to realize that the days are long gone of getting paid $75K with only a high school education to assemble cars (only to go on strike if the company tells them they actually have to pay for a portion of their health care benefits).

I was a union supporter until I lived in a right-to-work state, where I saw what was wrong with the unions in Michigan. And believe me, in many other states, people do associate "Michigan=unions", and they associate unions with strikes. What company wants to get involved in that mess?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by pnutbujelly

WOW, you don't even give the man time to see what he can or can not do.

What has he said that suggests to you that he understands the nation's economic problems and plans to do something substantive about them? Has he even acknowledged our real problem yet (global labor arbitrage)?

I voted for Obama and I don't think McCain would be any better, but I highly doubt that Obama will help the nation that much and it's quite possible if not probable that at the end of his four or eight year term that the nation will be in even worse shape, which won't be all his fault.

So far I haven't heard him mention any plans to address illegal immigration, mass legal immigration, foreign outsourcing, and H-1B and L-1 visas in any sort of meaningful way. Does he even regard them as being large problems? My guess is that he's doing the politically correct thing and focusing on banks and real estate rather than challenge the free market orthodoxy. Heck, his stimulus plan isn't even all that stimulative.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by pnutbujelly

Your point is a bit crude, but well taken. I have said for years that any country or the earth for that mater can only support a finite number of people. Unless you are Michael Medved who is a lunatic and believe that the earth can support an infinite number of people.

It's sad that so few people have any concept of Malthusian biology. History is littered with examples of what happens when the human population exceeds its carrying capacity. Some of the people who believe that carrying capacity is unlimited are religious nuts, others are free market dogmatists who believe that "the mind is the ultimate resource" and that a free market economy and innovation will always be able to provide for everybody. (I agree that man's mind is his means of survival, but I disagree with the notion that we can always count on scientists to invent things in time to always get us out of carrying capacity and environmental jams.)

[wanderer74]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Am I the only one has doubts that Michigan and the U.S. will "bounce back" at all?

I have this same concern. I think that the U.S. economy has been on a downward spiral for many years, which was covered up with easy access to credit, and now the dam has finally broken. Real wages were declining, but we were collectively able to keep the economy afloat largely with consumption of goods and services purchased on credit. Now millions of our jobs are gone (lost either to downsizing or offshoring) and the credit is drying up, so people don't have the same access to money to keep boosting a consumer-based economy. I would say that the majority of people I know are at their breaking point with debt loads already, and it's obvious that endless consumption isn't a sustainable way to live. Yet it's what kept our economy afloat, and we're already seeing that even a percentage of the public cutting back on their shopping is hurting the economy.

The only way I can see things turning around here is if we go back to producing most of our own goods in this country and accept that we can't buy as many of them, having to save for key items instead of mindlessly shopping as recreation. In short, I think it has to go back to the way it was many decades ago. The problem with that is that the new business model seems to be driven by the idea that profits have to continually increase every year - just continuing to make a profit isn't enough, it has to be an ever-growing amount of profit. The only way to do that is to make lower-quality goods that have to be purchased more frequently, while simultaneously cutting wages and jobs. We're seeing the results of that now: you can't expect people to keep shopping when they don't have jobs or they're making less money in real dollars than they were 30 years ago. I think the whole culture needs to change for the country as a whole to bounce back, on a personal and business level. I'm not sure when - or if - that will happen.