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Milwaukee has been a dangerous city in the past. Last year 71 murders were recorded. For a city of 602,000 people, that is actually not bad, especially when you considered Milwaukee has recorder 110+ murders per year when the population was smaller. Atlanta had more murders last year(85) and has a smaller population inside the city(519,00) and this is the lowest I have seen for Atlanta. Atlanta has been known to recorded between 120-150 murders per year when the population was barely 400,000. I think Milwaukee has far as statistics go, has become less violent. It could become a violent year this year, it might not be.
Murder isn't the only way to measure how dangerous a city is. The vast majority of people who live in Gary and Detroit aren't murdered but those are very dangerous cities. Besides, most people who are murdered are scumbags anyway. The true test is how safe you feel when you walk around your neighborhood at night. Do you have to worry about a car stopping and being mugged? How likely are you to be awakened in the middle of the night to hear someone walking around your house.
There are areas of Milwaukee that I'd feel comfortable walking around at 1 am. I'd venture to guess there are more areas that I wouldn't. Milwaukee is just so huge and varied that a question like this is too random. Some people would answer yes and some would answer no. It depends where you live, which often depends on how much money you've got.
Don't get me wrong, as I love Milwaukee; I live here and work here. I am also able to keep an objective opinion on comparisons because of work experiences that allow a person to see a city from a true perspective, rather than just from a statistical point of view.
Crime statistics are just that, statistics. City government will play games with numbers to achieve goals, meaning that they will reclassify crimes from one category to another, in order to fit an objective a city may have. It happens.
Is Milwaukee's crime more dangerous than say a Camden, NJ? Probably not to a city's visitors, but a city such as Camden does not have the commerce and business traffic that a city like Milwaukee has, so visitors and business travelers are not at the same risk level as city residents.
My point is that I don't see a whole lot of difference between Milwaukee and Detroit, from a professional point-of-view. And to focus on homicides is not a great idea, either.
A huge difference between Milwaukee and Detroit is the level of current city services, namely the emergency medical service. The EMS in Milwaukee saves countless shooting and stabbing victims every year that would be homicides in places like Detroit and Baltimore. Last year Milwaukee only had a few less people shot/stabbed than did Baltimore. It takes Milwaukee less than five minutes on average to have a paramedic unit on scene, following a call for help. Detroit, it is not uncommon to wait twenty, sometimes thirty minutes or more for help; the same happens in Baltimore, every single day. It really is kind of sad. But be grateful that we have the EMS we do have, it is a nationally recognized service. But because homicide numbers draw all of the attention, the numbers of people shot or stabbed isn't even thought talked about. Last year, if you suffered a penetrating traumatic injury (shot or stabbed) in the city of Milwaukee, you would have had a 95% chance of survival, statistically speaking of course.
There are some fabulous neighborhoods, and they are relatively safe, from a statistical point-of-view. The reality is though, crime and violence happen every single day in every single neighborhood, whether you hear about it or not.
I don't live in fear in my home, but I am aware and alert. And my home is not in as much danger as a home on 13th and Greoling Pl, or 5th and Maple.
Make no mistake about it though, the inner city here is as bad as virtually every other inner city in this nation. Vacant dwellings, drug houses, etc... all run rampant, and are on a par. Police officers are shot in this city in broad daylight, people are murdered right in front of inner city fire stations, and I could go on.
These are all indicators of a very dangerous culture that exists.
Take a trip to Baltimore, and you will find neighborhoods that are fantastic, blue collar, high end, and some that are absolutely terrible, just like here.
Follow the case here that happened last weekend, in which the master carpenter was killed while exiting a bar in a "statistically safe neighborhood", and see who it was that perpetrated that homicide, just pay attention. Crime is starting to branch out.
Last edited by TommyGavin; 07-17-2009 at 09:47 AM..
Don't get me wrong, as I love Milwaukee; I live here and work here. I am also able to keep an objective opinion on comparisons because of work experiences that allow a person to see a city from a true perspective, rather than just from a statistical point of view.
Crime statistics are just that, statistics. City government will play games with numbers to achieve goals, meaning that they will reclassify crimes from one category to another, in order to fit an objective a city may have. It happens.
Is Milwaukee's crime more dangerous than say a Camden, NJ? Probably not to a city's visitors, but a city such as Camden does not have the commerce and business traffic that a city like Milwaukee has, so visitors and business travelers are not at the same risk level as city residents.
My point is that I don't see a whole lot of difference between Milwaukee and Detroit, from a professional point-of-view. And to focus on homicides is not a great idea, either.
A huge difference between Milwaukee and Detroit is the level of current city services, namely the emergency medical service. The EMS in Milwaukee saves countless shooting and stabbing victims every year that would be homicides in places like Detroit and Baltimore. Last year Milwaukee only had a few less people shot/stabbed than did Baltimore. It takes Milwaukee less than five minutes on average to have a paramedic unit on scene, following a call for help. Detroit, it is not uncommon to wait twenty, sometimes thirty minutes or more for help; the same happens in Baltimore, every single day. It really is kind of sad. But be grateful that we have the EMS we do have, it is a nationally recognized service. But because homicide numbers draw all of the attention, the numbers of people shot or stabbed isn't even thought talked about. Last year, if you suffered a penetrating traumatic injury (shot or stabbed) in the city of Milwaukee, you would have had a 95% chance of survival, statistically speaking of course.
There are some fabulous neighborhoods, and they are relatively safe, from a statistical point-of-view. The reality is though, crime and violence happen every single day in every single neighborhood, whether you hear about it or not.
I don't live in fear in my home, but I am aware and alert. And my home is not in as much danger as a home on 13th and Greoling Pl, or 5th and Maple.
Make no mistake about it though, the inner city here is as bad as virtually every other inner city in this nation. Vacant dwellings, drug houses, etc... all run rampant, and are on a par. Police officers are shot in this city in broad daylight, people are murdered right in front of inner city fire stations, and I could go on.
These are all indicators of a very dangerous culture that exists.
Take a trip to Baltimore, and you will find neighborhoods that are fantastic, blue collar, high end, and some that are absolutely terrible, just like here.
Follow the case here that happened last weekend, in which the master carpenter was killed while exiting a bar in a "statistically safe neighborhood", and see who it was that perpetrated that homicide, just pay attention. Crime is starting to branch out.
Tommy - I assume you work for MFD. I too work in the inner city and I am
provided with a bullet proof vest. I am very familiar with what is going on. But, the problem with cops, fireman and others is that they see the same type of people and situations over and over and over. They begin to believe this is the norm for everyone. Sad to say, but these people stick out and are not
the majority, but it jades the view of the person who has to witness this again and again.
As far as police getting shot. Yes this happens, but it is rare and the overwhelming majority of MPD never get shot.
The incident on 64th and Main which you mention. Sorry to say bad things like this happen all over and always have. Look at the incident in Menomonee Falls, were a homeowner was beaten into a coma during an
home invansion. Nobody here is claiming that Menomonee Falls is going to hell. To a certain degree bad things will happen almost anywhere. This will never change.
Last edited by Allan Trafton; 07-17-2009 at 10:33 AM..
As far as police getting shot. Yes this happens, but it is rare and the overwhelming majority of MPD never get shot.
The overwhelming number of troops in Iraq don’t get shot, either.
Four officers have been shot so far this year, in broad daylight, and not in the “inner-city”, per say.
The point is the outright brazenness of the shootings, and it represents a change in the culture, or the attitude of the neighborhoods where crime is happening. If you work in the inner city, then you are well aware of the attitudes that are happening there, and the change in the culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton
But, the problem with cops, fireman and others is that see the same type of people and situations over and over and over. They begin to believe this is the norm for everyone. Sad to say, but these people sick out and are not
the majority, but it jades the view of the person who has to witness this again and again.
Trust me, I am far from jaded. Thru work, I have had ample opportunity to travel to several major cities, including Detroit, Baltimore and Denver. Thru those opportunities, I was able to gain several very good friends inside the departments of those cities, and was amazed at the differences and the similarities between these cities.
My logic behind the comparison between Detroit and Milwaukee is very well placed, in my opinion. Both cities have some striking similarities in their respective pasts, in both beer production and heavy manufacturing. Both were manufacturing kings in their time. Obviously, Detroit has fared far worse over the decades, but that is mostly due to corrupt city government administrations, where Milwaukee has not had that, yet.
Wisconsin as a whole is doing far better than Michigan, which is another important factor, seeing as the majority of Milwaukee’s annual operating budget is funded thru shared revenue. We’ll have to wait and see what happens once this state is completely bankrupt.
I think if you spend any amount of time in Detroit, you will see that crime there is exactly the same as it is here, in Milwaukee. Yet people consider Detroit to be dangerous and Milwaukee safe.
I just think it would not be in good judgment to allow people to perhaps draw the wrong conclusion from a thread, such as this one, and perhaps let their guard down.
I have spent a lot of time just looking at comparisons between Detroit and Milwaukee. Nothing with a great deal of depth or with an actual goal of achieving anything, just trying to satisfy my own curiosity of how a powerhouse of city, such as Detroit could fall so far. I am also curious about whether Milwaukee itself could suffer the same kind of catastrophic failure.
Unfortunately, I believe we can.
And believe me, the firemen I have become friends with in Detroit are not jaded. In most cases they are the only ones who still give a sh*t about that city, and do what they can to try and make the place a bit safer.
They have traveled here, and drank here as much as I have there. They see no differences in many of our neighborhoods, as compared to Detroit, save for being about 10 years behind them.
As far as the incident on 64th & Main, it can’t be compared to the home invasion in the Falls you referenced. The dirt balls who committed this murder were looking for this to happen. They basically stalked the place out, and had been hanging around the area for some time looking to cause an issue. There is more of that happening around town than people care to admit.
For a comparison, consider this. I believe it was 1960, or so. Milwaukee, with a population approaching 800,000 people in the city proper, averaged about 10 murders annually.
That was a safe , working class, blue collar city.
I’m not trying to scare anyone off, or portray Milwaukee as something it isn’t. However, if we don’t look at things objectively, this city can slide further down the path of decline it is on.
There are so many similarities between Detroit and Milwaukee that it is scary. The rate of population decline, the rate that business is leaving, tax climate, the dependency of the city on outside revenue sources for operating expenses, etc…
There are differences between Detriot and Milwaukee. Milwaukee population peaked at 741,000 in the 1960's and now stands are 604,000 as of last week. Detriots population almost hit 1.9 mil and now by some estimates is below 900,000. Also, the scoop of blight and area of decline and slums in Detriot is off the charts compared to Milwaukee. It is not even in the same league. Demographic's point out the differences also. Detriot is over 80% african american. Milwaukee stands at around 38% and all indicators sugguest this number is steady and on the verge of decline. So there are major differences between the two cities. Yes there are neighborhoods in Milwaukee which are on par with Detriot, but this can be said of almost every U.S. city east of the Mississsippi. Nobody is questioning this. We all know there are terrible neighborhoods in Milwaukee. I do not believe Milwaukee will ever become the next Detrioit. I have been hearing this for 40 years. This is nothing new. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this. I would be able to retire young.
There are differences between Detriot and Milwaukee. Milwaukee population peaked at 741,000 in the 1960's and now stands are 604,000 as of last week. Detriots population almost hit 1.9 mil and now by some estimates is below 900,000.
Who knows if the population estimate for Milwaukee is correct. It is an estimate only, and highly suspect, at best.
I wasn't comparing populations, nor was I implying that they were equal. My comparison went deeper than that. How many businesses are moving into the city? Where is the Miller headquarters, now? How is Rockwell Automation doing? How about Tower Automotive, or Masterlock? Schlitz? Pabst?
Why have we lost close to 200,000 residents over the years?
The similarities I was talking about are more political, business climate, changing demographics, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton
Also, the scoop of blight and area of decline and slums in Detriot is off the charts compared to Milwaukee. It is not even in the same league. Demographic's point out the differences also. Detriot is over 80% african american. Milwaukee stands at around 38% and all indicators sugguest this number is steady and on the verge of decline.
Take a look at the decline of Detroit and Flint, at the loss of business, the flight of residents, etc... How long has Detroit been at or around 80% black? Why did it become that way?
You honestly don't think that there are economic similarities between what happened there and is happening here? We are only one corrupt city administration away from flopping.
Granted, Wisconsin is stronger economic wise than Michigan, but for how long? Wait till every business is pushed out of this state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton
I do not believe Milwaukee will ever become the next Detrioit. I have been hearing this for 40 years. This is nothing new. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this. I would be able to retire young.
I never thought about it until my Detroit friends made light of it. It was something that they saw, not me. It's also more of a reference to an economic climate, or a business environment than anything else.
Milwaukee also knocks down it's vacant homes far quicker than Detroit ever did, and the residents here don't burn the homes at the same rate they do in Detroit. But we do have blocks and blocks and blocks with dozens of vacant homes on them, and those numbers are increasing every single day.
And perhaps the reason this city hasn't fallen as far as Detroit is that the citizens here took notice, and they haven't let it happen.
No one will want to talk about it, but the implementation of W2 went a very long ways to stopping some very major problems in this town. It is politically incorrect to talk that way, but look at the crime numbers in this city before and after W2.
To say that this city won't suffer more economic decay, or hasn't is the same as sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a problem.
To say that this city won't suffer more economic decay, or hasn't is the same as sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a problem.
I am fully aware of the problems we face. I don't live in a cave. Also, I have been in far more drug houses, vacant houses and slums in Milwaukee than you have. And yes I realize your a firefighter and have regular exposure to this. But to compare it to a full blown Detriot is in my view being an alarmist. Of course your buddies from Detriot are going to say this. Misery enjoys company, what do you think there going to say. They probably want the entire urban U.S. to become a slum. Nobody wants to be in last place. Also, I lived in Detroit in the early 90's, and believe me Milwaukee is nowhere near the point Detroit was then. Not by a long shot.
Detroit turned rapidly black after the roits. All the whites left, which could affford to do so. The demographic forces at play(hispanic) will not allow this to happen in Milwaukee. Milwaukee may evolve into something else, but it is highly unlikely it will be the next Detriot.
Also, I have been in far more drug houses, vacant houses and slums in Milwaukee than you have.
We have a little saying, and that is that those who do the most talking have done the least.
It WAS a good discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton
Of course your buddies from Detriot are going to say this. Misery enjoys company, what do you think there going to say. They probably want the entire urban U.S. to become a slum.
Don't you dare insult them, especially when you don't know a thing about them. You've proven what you are, so this discussion is done, as far as my participation in it.
Why don't don't you go back to Detroit, and visit a few engine houses there.
Those guys are probably the only guys who still give a sh*t about that city. They sure as hell don't risk their lives for the money, or the working environment, and they sure don't wish their squalor conditions on anyone else.
You have a chip on your shoulder about something, I don't know what, not that it matters.
I never made direct comparisons, between Detroit and Milwaukee. I said that there was issues going on that are very similar, in fact strikingly.
I also very clearly pointed out that the basic city services in the city here are alive and well.
We have a world class water system, my garbage gets picked up every week, the roads are in decent condition, the police solve murders, we have a nationally recognized EMS system, etc...
The way this forum reads, some would like this place to be compared to Mayberry, and we can't do that. There are some real problems in this city that we, as it's residents need to be aware of.
Does it mean that we should flee it? I hope not, I'm stuck living here.
Nobody's comparing Milwaukee to Mayberry any more than you compared it to Detroit, Baltimore, Flint, and Iraq... you toe'd the line but didn't quite cross it on any of them.
I say that the vast majority of the city is safe. I've cited statistics. You apparently disagree. You cited anectodal examples. We can all agree that there are dangerous people in the city and dangerous locations within. This thread and the poll within is about keeping the issue in perspective.
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