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I didn't suggest that -- in fact, I explicitly said that I doubted that a GLBT-headed family would face discrimination or feel unwelcome, even in an area where many of their neighbors perhaps either supported or didn't care about the proposed amendment. Voting yes doesn't make one a bad person or a bad neighbor.
But... if I were a gay or lesbian couple with young kids, living in a neighborhood where potentially most of the neighbors were either indifferent or were going to vote yes (hypothetically speaking; it's true that the existence or lack of signs itself doesn't tell us that, as some people just don't like signs), I might be concerned that even if my neighbors were perfectly nice, decent people, that it would be difficult for my kids if potentially most people in the community didn't recognize their parents' relationship. I don't think that would be as much of a concern for adults without kids, or adults with older children. But for those with younger kids, it might reflect that there would be some other, subtle issues. If it's already an area with very, very few GLBT-headed households with children, then the kids are already potentially going to feel like they are different. And feeling different isn't necessarily bad, but I think it's human nature that parents want their kids to grow up in a safe, nurturing environment, and where their community wasn't subtly signalling to them that their family structure was wrong.
And no, I don't think the issue is being run out of town or harassed in most places in the Twin Cities -- I think it's far more subtle than that. Do the neighbor kids learn that some families have two mommies or two daddies? Will your kids feel like their family is normal?
Seriously?? No, everyone in the suburbs are complete morons and we never teach our kids anything. Do you REALLY need to make an issue out of this? Do you really need to read between the lines and create problems that just don't exist? Do you REALLY think Minneapolis has the lock on educated people that don't give a rip what color your skin is, what your orientation is, where you were born, etc.? Give me a break .
Seriously?? No, everyone in the suburbs are complete morons and we never teach our kids anything. Do you REALLY need to make an issue out of this? Do you really need to read between the lines and create problems that just don't exist? Do you REALLY think Minneapolis has the lock on educated people that don't give a rip what color your skin is, what your orientation is, where you were born, etc.? Give me a break .
Did you pay ANY attention to what went on in the schools in Anoka?? It's naive to suggest that there aren't still issues out there. No, that didn't happen in Rosemount. Perhaps Rosemount is totally open and accepting of GLBT parents, and the local culture includes the librarians at the local story time reading books that reference gay dads, for example.
I'm not suggesting that Rosemount is a big bed of discrimination. I'm sure it's not. But the southern suburbs simply don't HAVE many GLBT couples with kids, and sometimes if you just rarely see something, it doesn't come up as an issue when talking to the kids.
I'm sure many parents do talk about this with their kids, but many also do not. For many people it IS a "non-issue" meaning that they just don't talk about it either way, but if a kid grows up somewhere where most of the other families have one mother and one father, what does that potentially mean for the kids who have family structures that don't fit that norm? And I'm assuming that anyone who would vote yes on the amendment isn't telling their kids "some people have two mommies or two daddies, just like you have one mommy and one daddy." (maybe I'm wrong about that, but if you believe that it's wrong to have gay couples married, then presumably that means that one believes that the union is not identical)
Education has nothing to do with this. I don't think Minneapolis has the lock on being open-minded to GLBT couples with kids. But the fact remains that some parts of the metro area have a lot more GLBT couples with kids than do other areas, which means that the kids with gay/lesbian parents are more likely to have others in their block/neighborhood/classroom with GLBT parents, which I would think would make things a little easier.
I simply think that I'd give more consideration to these issues if I were a GLBT parent with a child. Society is very clearly not at the point yet where everyone is comfortable with, say, a gay married couple with kids. I think it is understandable that a parent might want to protect their kids from some of those issues. That would mean not just assuming that "no one cares," as obviously, in many parts of the metro area, people DO still care. The easy way out is to pick a neighborhood that has an established reputation as being GLBT-family friendly. Of course there's nothing wrong with choosing to forge a new path or try a new neighborhood that doesn't have many GLBT families, but I do think that those areas require a bit more research. And, fair or not, the upcoming amendment will be one tool in which newcomers can evaluate potential new neighborhoods.
It's easy for those not directly impacted to say "no need to make a big issue out of this." But for some families, there's no getting around the fact that it IS a big issue.
Did you pay ANY attention to what went on in the schools in Anoka?? It's naive to suggest that there aren't still issues out there. No, that didn't happen in Rosemount. Perhaps Rosemount is totally open and accepting of GLBT parents, and the local culture includes the librarians at the local story time reading books that reference gay dads, for example.
I'm not suggesting that Rosemount is a big bed of discrimination. I'm sure it's not. But the southern suburbs simply don't HAVE many GLBT couples with kids, and sometimes if you just rarely see something, it doesn't come up as an issue when talking to the kids.
I'm sure many parents do talk about this with their kids, but many also do not. For many people it IS a "non-issue" meaning that they just don't talk about it either way, but if a kid grows up somewhere where most of the other families have one mother and one father, what does that potentially mean for the kids who have family structures that don't fit that norm? And I'm assuming that anyone who would vote yes on the amendment isn't telling their kids "some people have two mommies or two daddies, just like you have one mommy and one daddy." (maybe I'm wrong about that, but if you believe that it's wrong to have gay couples married, then presumably that means that one believes that the union is not identical)
Education has nothing to do with this. I don't think Minneapolis has the lock on being open-minded to GLBT couples with kids. But the fact remains that some parts of the metro area have a lot more GLBT couples with kids than do other areas, which means that the kids with gay/lesbian parents are more likely to have others in their block/neighborhood/classroom with GLBT parents, which I would think would make things a little easier.
I simply think that I'd give more consideration to these issues if I were a GLBT parent with a child. Society is very clearly not at the point yet where everyone is comfortable with, say, a gay married couple with kids. I think it is understandable that a parent might want to protect their kids from some of those issues. That would mean not just assuming that "no one cares," as obviously, in many parts of the metro area, people DO still care. The easy way out is to pick a neighborhood that has an established reputation as being GLBT-family friendly. Of course there's nothing wrong with choosing to forge a new path or try a new neighborhood that doesn't have many GLBT families, but I do think that those areas require a bit more research. And, fair or not, the upcoming amendment will be one tool in which newcomers can evaluate potential new neighborhoods.
It's easy for those not directly impacted to say "no need to make a big issue out of this." But for some families, there's no getting around the fact that it IS a big issue.
Was Anoka on the list of schools we were discussing, NO.....did you pay attention to what was written???? NO.
These posts are helping even me. Is that area @ Como/ Hamline safe? Sounds like it is friendly towards alternative couples, and good schools too. That is what I am looking for too. Is that possible to send your child to a good public school there, or does it have to be an expensive private? Was told by someone in the south metro to stay away from some of the schools there. Doesnt have the quality or the whole class has to go at a real slow pace. Don't know. She comes from a family of teachers. Is that true?
I would try to talk to parents that have children in the schools there and get real information:
Was Anoka on the list of schools we were discussing, NO.....did you pay attention to what was written???? NO.
No need to be rude. My larger point was that no, it's not all just fine and dandy in the Twin Cities. You seem to be under the impression that same-sex couples and their children will have identical, or near-identical, experiences wherever they land in the Twin Cities. Anoka was simply the most recent high-visibility case showing that that is not the case. Location can make a difference. If moving to an area where there are relatively few same-sex-headed households, it's more important to do your research. Because some neighborhoods and schools are more welcoming than others.
I didn't suggest that -- in fact, I explicitly said that I doubted that a GLBT-headed family would face discrimination or feel unwelcome, even in an area where many of their neighbors perhaps either supported or didn't care about the proposed amendment. Voting yes doesn't make one a bad person or a bad neighbor.
Forgive me, uptown urbanist, if my post came across that I thought you were being that way! I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT MEAN TO INFER THAT! The reverse is true, actually. I've only known your posts to be helpful and respectful!
I was strictly speaking in general, from my experience. I was probably speaking out of frustration and that came out in my post. I didn't intend it to. It's just that, in my area, people are SO VOCAL about voting NO that anyone whose opinion is different gets immediately BLASTED with the "HOW DARE YOU, YOU INTOLERANT BIGOT" speech. The YES signs and personal property of those who post them, have been vandalized and it's the HYPOCRISY of the lack of tolerance that frustrate me. Anger issues and responses on many different topics are becoming far too scary and frequent!
It will be put to the vote and the people will have their say. There's no reason for hatred, violence or vandalism from ANYONE on this. What will be, will be.
As for choosing a neighborhood to live in, I can understand wanting to live near like-minded people but I can't imagine why such an issue would hinder anyone's decision unless they come from an extremely hateful place where people act out on their hatred and rage with regularity. I can't imagine any areas around here that do. Even these vandalism incidences around here are not the norm.
At any rate, it sounds like the OP found a great neighborhood she's comfortable to live in with her family. That's what matters and I'm happy for her. One less problem for her to deal with. Job-wise, I'd like to recommend applying with ComCast (or whatever they call themselves now) as a customer service rep in the call center. I hear they always need people and are located in St. Paul. They offer a lot of overtime and the pay is above average for starting.
I wouldn't take it as indifference, maybe all of my neighbors oppose same sex marriages, I don't know, the point you are missing, again, is that people here realize that other people are different and they accept and embrace that, making life style choices a non-issue--no one is going to run you out of the neighborhood, burn a cross on your lawn etc. Now, if you keep rusted out cars in your driveway and don't mow your lawn all summer, some of the neighbors might get a bit frustrated with you. Also, people rarely put political signs in yards for anything. Not sure why, they just don't.
I've heard you make the statement "no one is going to run you out of the neighborhood, burn a cross on your lawn etc." as illustrative of the warm, embracing acceptance people will find in any area of the cities/Minnesota. I'm sure minority persons reading your posts are comforted by the fact that there doesn't appear to be an active KKK alive and well in the south Metro.
In theory I generally agree with you that Minnesota, in general, is a fairly tolerant place. If it weren't, the many immigrant communities and others that might face discrimination elsewhere likely would not come here (and/or grow in numbers). But as alluded to by Uptown (at least I think this is similar to what she was saying), there are some subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) attitudes that exist in MN, and vary by geography, that might not be viewed as accepting. And related to race- it is undeniable that there exists some pretty insane disparities that most (mainstream) Minnesotans would prefer not to have illustrated and/or doesn't mesh with the state identity of 'tolerant' harmony - e.g. highest employment gap between blacks and whites in the nation, a very high educational gap, significant racial disparities in the criminal justice system, the national press given to Anoka re: gay student rights/bullying, etc.
Regarding the marriage amendment, from my perspective it's the same as if it were pre-Civil Rights era and there was a constitutional amendment to ban interracial marriage on the ballot- if I was in an interracial relationship and saw a bunch of "Vote Yes to Banning Interracial Marriage" signs in yards (or knew that an area tended to be more conservative and that the conservative platform was to "vote Yes")- I wouldn't exactly feel welcome in that area, and/or choose to want to support its local tax base.
In my neighborhood, I would estimate that a good 25% of all yards in the neighborhood have political signs, and I have seen more "Vote No" signs that any other signs (although there are a good handful of "Vote Yes" signs around as well). Granted, our neighborhood has a lot of gay couples- and it's known to be a very politically engaged/progressive area, but I think I would view the complete lack of yard signs in an area to be strange (in a MN Nice/Stepford kind of way, or at the very least telling of a lack of involvement/investment in the local political process).
Thanks Golfgal, and the rest. As far as south metro I should have been more specific. I meant south of the river areas. (lakeville, eagan, apple valley, burnsville, farmington, rosemount, shakopee ect...) They typically have pretty decent public schools, but not many lgbt families at all. My friend did say our child would probably not have any problems in Lakeville, don't know. For childcare We did check out an area closer to Minneapolis. Richfield/Edina. Going to check out St Paul area, and some of the other areas already mentioned. For what it is worth. We were blown away by the Vote No signs driving up there. It was wonderful to us. We did not see one Vote Yes sign the whole time. Could not believe it; it was like a breath of fresh aire! That is very different from where we live ...
But the most important thing is safety and good schools for our little one, just like everyone else. Having lived in a red voting area for many years, I can tell you most people are pretty decent. They may just not want you over for coffee. LOL. Uptown Urbanist hit it on the head. It is subtle, but noticable. When you are at a restaurant you get stared at the whole time. Or you say "hello" and people completely turn away, or take their kids into the house. You get the point I am sure. We would like where we live to be more inclusive for all of us. Isn't that what we all want. Tolerance is to tolerate, but acceptance is to allow another to "be" and to be "ok" with it. Bye and Thanks
I think most people are decent, and compared to what you are describing now, I doubt you'd encounter anything on that scale, even in the more conservative parts of the Twin Cities. I think the vast majority of people in the Twin Cities, even those who oppose gay marriage (and even those who are uncomfortable with LGBT people, period), would still be polite. They may not want you to be married, but they'll say hello and chat with you if you run into them at the grocery store and won't shun your kids.
Minneapolis (and, I assume, St. Paul) and some of the suburbs are among the most family-friendly GLBT places in the nation, so the benchmark is set pretty high. Some of the suburbs with very few LGBT households with kids might seem comparatively less welcoming than, say, Camden's neighborhood, but your neighbors will still be friendly, even if they may or may not approve of your family structure. Now whether or not you feel comfortable living somewhere where potentially a significant people don't approve of your relationship, even if it's not directly expressed, is a different question, and one that really only you can answer. And, admittedly, I don't know what percentage of people in the south metro suburbs would be it that category to begin with, but only note that that the south metro is, generally speaking, known for being one of the more socially conservative parts of the Twin Cities. And Congressman John Kline is aggressively hostile to LGBT rights.
I think most people are decent, and compared to what you are describing now, I doubt you'd encounter anything on that scale, even in the more conservative parts of the Twin Cities. I think the vast majority of people in the Twin Cities, even those who oppose gay marriage (and even those who are uncomfortable with LGBT people, period), would still be polite. They may not want you to be married, but they'll say hello and chat with you if you run into them at the grocery store and won't shun your kids.
Minneapolis (and, I assume, St. Paul) and some of the suburbs are among the most family-friendly GLBT places in the nation, so the benchmark is set pretty high. Some of the suburbs with very few LGBT households with kids might seem comparatively less welcoming than, say, Camden's neighborhood, but your neighbors will still be friendly, even if they may or may not approve of your family structure. Now whether or not you feel comfortable living somewhere where potentially a significant people don't approve of your relationship, even if it's not directly expressed, is a different question, and one that really only you can answer. And, admittedly, I don't know what percentage of people in the south metro suburbs would be it that category to begin with, but only note that that the south metro is, generally speaking, known for being one of the more socially conservative parts of the Twin Cities. And Congressman John Kline is aggressively hostile to LGBT rights.
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Do you REALLY need to make an issue out of this? Do you really need to read between the lines and create problems that just don't exist? Do you REALLY think Minneapolis has the lock on educated people that don't give a rip what color your skin is, what your orientation is, where you were born, etc.? Give me a break 
