Same-Sex Marriage (Duluth, Dayton: city hall, homes, vs.)

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by iNviNciBL3

I don't mean to sound crazy mentioning yard signs but i see an astonishing amount of vote no signs, even in suburbs that people claim to be "more conservative"

Not all conservatives are against same-sex marriages.

The conservative case for same-sex marriage | StarTribune.com

Rob Watson: A Gay Dad Sounds Off: 10 Reasons Why Conservative Christians Should Be Fighting for Gay Marriage

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Rho Ophiuchi

I'm surprised anyone is naive enough to think that "Only the 'other side' does stuff like this!".

Teacher fired for views on same-sex marriage - Post Bulletin

Personally, I doubt the disparity in the frequency of signs means anything at all. I see more Bills signs than Klobuchar signs, but I don't try and pass that off as some indication that Klobuchar supporters are oppressed and facing retaliation for putting up signs. Some campaigns just don't direct funds and volunteer support towards signs as much as other campaigns.

However, I understand that the "We're being victimized for our beliefs!" meme sounds better to some.

The story you cite is about a teacher in a Catholic school who did not uphold the values that they had committed to teach. This is completely different from the stories that I cited.

While I pity your inability to disagree with someone without resorting to name calling, I do agree with you that disparity of signs on this issue doesn't mean much. Why do you think one side is eager to display their views while the proponents seem reluctant?

[Rho Ophiuchi]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

The story you cite is about a teacher in a Catholic school who did not uphold the values that they had committed to teach. This is completely different from the stories that I cited.

Nonsense. She suffered the loss of her job for her position on same-sex marriage. And as the article makes clear, she wasn't fired for anything she was teaching, but for her response to a school questionaire.

You specifically asked this:
How many supporters of gay marriage have had their jobs threatened?

And I showed you someone who not only had her job threatened, but lost it. Undoubtedly disappointed in having your illusions that only "the other side" would ever hold ones livelihood dependent on ones stance on same-sex marriage, you're now attempting to claim it isn't the same. It is the same -- it is the loss of a job based on ones same-sex marriage stance, your attempt to excuse it because the firing business uses religion as an excuse notwithstanding.

While I pity your inability to disagree with someone without resorting to name calling, I do agree with you that disparity of signs on this issue doesn't mean much. Why do you think one side is eager to display their views while the proponents seem reluctant?

I called no names -- I merely said that those who hold to the "The other side does it, we don't!" idea are naive. That descriptive is no more name-calling than your claim that I have an 'inability'. Which is to say, it isn't. Both of us have described the other in certain ways. But only one of us is whining about name-calling, and it isn't me.

As for the bolded text, that's a nice retreat from your suggestion that the sign frequency might be due to some sort of oppression. And, yes, in your previous post I noted your use of the word 'maybe', there to give you a convenient retreat should someone call you out on your suggestion that retribution might be the basis for fewer amendment supporters declining to put up signs.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you don't really hold to the suggestion you previously put forth. I am not surprised.

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Rho Ophiuchi

As for the bolded text, that's a nice retreat from your suggestion that the sign frequency might be due to some sort of oppression. And, yes, in your previous post I noted your use of the word 'maybe', there to give you a convenient retreat should someone call you out on your suggestion that retribution might be the basis for fewer amendment supporters declining to put up signs.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you don't really hold to the suggestion you previously put forth. I am not surprised.

I meant that the frequency of signs doesn't mean much in terms of predicting the outcome I guess we don't agree after all. You meant something else I guess. I am not surprised.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

Maybe people see what happens to opponents of gay marriage and think twice before coming out publically.

If they're so sure of their beliefs, why wouldn't they "come out?" (Interesting choice of words, btw.)

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Globe199

If they're so sure of their beliefs, why wouldn't they "come out?" (Interesting choice of words, btw.)

??? The answer was in the post you quoted.

Originally Posted by Glenfield

Maybe people see what happens to opponents of gay marriage and think twice before coming out publically. After all, some of those who contributed to the Prop 8 effort in California found they were late targeted by gay marriage supporters...

Go back and look at the stories I linked to.

[Globe199]

But I guess my point is, if those people were so certain that their beliefs are not politically incorrect, then why are they hiding? Certainly they aren't all afraid of being "targeted," as you worded it.

I live in a fairly liberal area, but I've seen a handful of Vote Yes signs, mostly in the yards of what I believe are senior citizens (based on their personal appearances). On the other hand, a couple friends live in much more conservative areas but the Vote No signs still far outnumber Vote Yes. Could it possibly be that some Vote Yes people don't want to be seen as actively attempting to restrict the human rights of their neighbors?

Consider an Obama sign in one yard and a Romney sign in another. The signs are effectively saying, "We're voting for different candidates, but that does not mean I have any personal beef with you. We just disagree on politics."

On the other hand, a Vote Yes sign implicitly says, "It's quite possible that I don't like you and what you do with your personal life." That goes beyond simple politics.

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Globe199

But I guess my point is, if those people were so certain that their beliefs are not politically incorrect, then why are they hiding? Certainly they aren't all afraid of being "targeted," as you worded it.

I live in a fairly liberal area, but I've seen a handful of Vote Yes signs, mostly in the yards of what I believe are senior citizens (based on their personal appearances). On the other hand, a couple friends live in much more conservative areas but the Vote No signs still far outnumber Vote Yes. Could it possibly be that some Vote Yes people don't want to be seen as actively attempting to restrict the human rights of their neighbors?

Consider an Obama sign in one yard and a Romney sign in another. The signs are effectively saying, "We're voting for different candidates, but that does not mean I have any personal beef with you. We just disagree on politics."

On the other hand, a Vote Yes sign implicitly says, "It's quite possible that I don't like you and what you do with your personal life." That goes beyond simple politics.

Who said that support of the amendment is politically correct? It most certainly is politically incorrect. Your statement about what a vote yes sign might mean shows exactly why people won't have them. You can't see outside your own personal paradigm, and some have acted on similar prejudices. As you admit, it goes beyond simple politics with you. It doesn't with me, but it does with you. Never take on a true believer, Winston. You never know when they might be dangerous.

Perhaps you are right that not everyone fears you, as I do. I suppose the other reason you don't see as many of them is the same reason you see far more liberal bumper stickers. Signs and stickers proclaiming your beliefs seem kind of silly.

[Govie]

Apparently closer than some believe. It will go down to the wire. Have fun with your little battle, folks.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by Govie

Apparently closer than some believe. It will go down to the wire. Have fun with your little battle, folks.

You appear to be enjoying this upcoming vote a little to much.

Going back to the public showing of your stance, it's not just the "Vote Yes" proponents who are facing blowback for their views (and you can go to more rural areas to see plenty Vote Yes signs, as I can attest when I was visiting family near Duluth). Most blowback is somebody vandalizes or steals your sign. There was an article about a billboard in Uptown being vandalized with pink paint. One, I certainly don't agree with that act. We can be civil adults and disagree, even on our core beliefs, and still maintain some dignity (I do wonder, however, why the Vote Yes campaign decided to put a billboard up in probably the most liberal part of the Twin Cities...seems like resources could be better spent). Two, this isn't exactly one-sided. There was a news article earlier this summer about a bunch of Vote No signs being stolen in Bloomington and many vandalized (I believe that was in Minneapolis, but I can't remember). A friend had a Vote No bumper sticker on his car and one day noticed that somebody had hastily slapped a Vote Yes sticker over it. When walking on the streets, I was with a friend who was wearing a Vote No t-shirt. A guy walking past us laughed and said in a surprised voice, "Vote No?" followed by a lewd statement that can't be repeated on these boards.

Let's not pretend the Vote Yes people are the victims here. People on both sides have been nasty.

I'm voting no, and I hope enough people in the state will to strike the amendment down. If not, I suppose we'll have another fight on this come 2014, especially if the DFL takes control this election cycle, because I wouldn't be surprised if they put up a repeal.