Sales tax increase for road work to be put on November ballot.... (Republic: credit, student loans)

[marigolds6]

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Of course I read it. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe the politicians and voters in St. Louis city/county (which comprises a good chunk of the state's population) might decide to make a statewide sales tax support something that they've tried to fund locally for years? Hmmmm...

St Louis City and County have been trying to get the state to fund transit for about 4 decades.
That is the reason they had to pass a local sales tax... the state refused to fund any part of public transit.

I guess you are not familiar with the structure of our state legislature, but population has little to do with how our legislature is elected. St Louis City and County combined make up 8 of 34 Senate seats and only 35 of 163 seats in the House. Despite being a large chunk of the state's population, they are essentially powerless in the state legislature.

[Flyover_Country]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

(Citation Needed)

Sure.

Food Stamp Fraud | Government Waste, Fraud and Abuse
FOX19 Investigates: Food stamp fraud exposed - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV
snopes.com: Receipt for Steak and Lobster Bought with Food Stamps

And that's just a few of the first handful of articles that come up when you search for "food stamp fraud."

Actually, obesity is positively correlated with food insecurity as evidenced by numerous studies, so you're working against your own point here.

Do you even know how "food insecurity" is calculated? It's a question-and-response survey done by the USDA Economic Research Service and the main reasons for being classified as "food insecure" were "worried about food running out," "ran out of food earlier than they thought they would," "felt like they could not afford a balanced meal," and "ate less than they think they should." These questions are not very correlated with a lack of food (like some of the other questions they asked) and it's no surprise that the people who answered those questions positively could be obese- they have more than enough calories available! The questions about having an actual lack of food such as not eating an entire day on multiple occasions or losing weight due to lack of food had a far smaller number of people answering yes. The definition of "food insecurity" also has a bunch of highly subjective statements in it which could be interpreted as meaning literally anything. I suppose I am "food insecure" as I don't have "ready access to a balanced diet" because I don't have a grocery store with ten aisles of organic, GMO-free, no-pesticide, fair-trade vegan food within three blocks of my house.

Basically all income the rich earn is a function of our country's infrastructure. How many billionaires do you see in rural towns with no roads?

Not generally billionaires but there are MANY multimillionaires that live out in such places. They're called farmers. Those combines you see harvesting the crops costs well over a half million dollars each and the semis they are filling up with grain aren't that much less expensive, neither are the tractors. Land is also a massive asset at several thousand dollars an acre. You have no clue.

They should pay a disproportionately high tax to fund the society they disproportionately benefit from.

Disproportionate benefit my foot, but they sure do pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. Nearly all federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% of income earners and the top 10% pays about three times as much as a percentage of all taxes as they earn in a percentage of all incomes. 47% of filers pay no taxes at all and many of them actually receive significant welfare/transfer payment benefits to boot. How is THAT fair when somebody pays nothing or even gets paid to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen while other people foot the bill?

Forcing millions of people to scrape by in poverty and disallow them from accessing the wealth of the nation, and then forcing them to bear the burden of paying for everything, makes no sense whatsoever. We should make it a policy to soak the rich and use their money to pay for the good of society, until the wealthiest 1% own less then half the wealth. Then we would be living in something like a democracy again.

That would be a "bread and circuses" and "the [government] can last only until the voters realize they can vote themselves the contents of the Treasury" kind of democracy as the lower-income folks simply vote to seize the money of the more well-off folks. That is a socialist state, and one which we unfortunately live in as that's exactly what's happening- see my comment about 47% of people paying no federal income taxes. We'll end up just like the Romans if we continue doing what they did. But hey, we can just continue to ignore history, it's not like it every repeats itself or anything.

[ram2]

Originally Posted by Ztonyg

The road financing system is so broken nowadays (as vehicles are much more fuel efficient than they used to be) that it's either taxes like this or freeways will get tolled.

Why not stop diverting the 20% of gas tax money to mass transit and actually use this gas tax money for road repair?

[Flyover_Country]

Originally Posted by ram2

Why not stop diverting the 20% of gas tax money to mass transit and actually use this gas tax money for road repair?

Because the liberals from St. Louis and Kansas City (or Chicago or LA or wherever) will yell and scream and holler about "already low 'metro' funding" and accuse you of making poor people eat cat food. Read the above several posts and you'll see. The cat food thing had nothing to do with the original argument but they mentioned it nonetheless. I guess if you don't have a leg to stand on, change the topic?

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Sure.

Food Stamp Fraud | Government Waste, Fraud and Abuse
FOX19 Investigates: Food stamp fraud exposed - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV
snopes.com: Receipt for Steak and Lobster Bought with Food Stamps

And that's just a few of the first handful of articles that come up when you search for "food stamp fraud."

These sources are nonsense. The first link, for example, is just "food stamps are costing more!" with a dozen anecdotes of fraud arrests. A proper citation would be something like an actual academic study. Anecdotes are worthless. Unless you're making the point that 12 people out of millions of food stamp users are fraudsters, which sounds like a pretty efficient program to me!

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

I suppose I am "food insecure" as I don't have "ready access to a balanced diet" because I don't have a grocery store with ten aisles of organic, GMO-free, no-pesticide, fair-trade vegan food within three blocks of my house.

Yeah, nobody is saying that, you're just conflating the various kinds of people you harbor a baseless hatred for. Food insecurity is linked in many studies to poorer school performance, for example, so it has many consequences beyond "nobody literally starved to death therefore there's plenty of food". I also can't help but notice that you complain that poor people are obese, and then pooh-pooh the idea that they need access to a balanced diet.

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Not generally billionaires but there are MANY multimillionaires that live out in such places. They're called farmers. Those combines you see harvesting the crops costs well over a half million dollars each and the semis they are filling up with grain aren't that much less expensive, neither are the tractors. Land is also a massive asset at several thousand dollars an acre. You have no clue.

So you're saying this country is totally fair, because what about all those hardworking farmers who inhereted millions of dollars worth of farmland from their parents? What point are you making, again? You think farmers don't benefit from the fact that poor people can't just squat on their land to make their own living as farmers?

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Disproportionate benefit my foot, but they sure do pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. Nearly all federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% of income earners and the top 10% pays about three times as much as a percentage of all taxes as they earn in a percentage of all incomes. 47% of filers pay no taxes at all and many of them actually receive significant welfare/transfer payment benefits to boot. How is THAT fair when somebody pays nothing or even gets paid to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen while other people foot the bill?

Nobody deserves to exercise dynastic rule over their neighbors in a democracy, which is what happens when you have billionaires. The existance of billionaires means that the distribution of wealth is not fair in the country. That's like watching a World Series where one team wins 12 million to zip, and then acting astonished when someone suggests the game might not have been a very even match.

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

That would be a "bread and circuses" and "the [government] can last only until the voters realize they can vote themselves the contents of the Treasury" kind of democracy as the lower-income folks simply vote to seize the money of the more well-off folks. That is a socialist state, and one which we unfortunately live in as that's exactly what's happening- see my comment about 47% of people paying no federal income taxes. We'll end up just like the Romans if we continue doing what they did. But hey, we can just continue to ignore history, it's not like it every repeats itself or anything.

Yes, 80% of the country's net worth is in the hands of 1% of the population... that's definitely hallmark of socialism.

[marigolds6]

Originally Posted by ram2

Why not stop diverting the 20% of gas tax money to mass transit and actually use this gas tax money for road repair?

Only two states in the country, Connecticut and Maryland, spend 20% or more of their gas tax on mass transit.
Missouri allocates 1.7% of the gas tax to mass transit, and that 1.7% is explicitly only available to RHSOC counties (as opposed to UASI counties, which are the KC and STL metro areas).

[Wanderer0101]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

It's funny how somehow "secondary consequences" never matter when those consequences are "the poorest third of Americans can only afford to eat cat food*", but only matter when they impact businesses.

*Obviously I'm being facetious; poor people can't afford cat food.

If "the poorest third of America can only afford to eat cat food", it must be pretty good stuff because they appear to be thriving on it.

I must say, this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've run across in a while, even from a leftist.

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by Wanderer0101

If "the poorest third of America can only afford to eat cat food", it must be pretty good stuff because they appear to be thriving on it.

I must say, this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've run across in a while, even from a leftist.

Well as I said in the post you quoted, I was being facetious. But the notion that "Welfare Queens" are living high on the hog is an anecdote-driven fantasy that has never been substantiated, and I don't think I've ever met anyone who even tried. It's just a concept conservatives are fond of because it allows them to doom millions of Americans to perpetual poverty without feeling guilty.

[Flyover_Country]

Originally Posted by Wanderer0101

If "the poorest third of America can only afford to eat cat food", it must be pretty good stuff because they appear to be thriving on it.

I must say, this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've run across in a while, even from a leftist.

I cease to be surprised at anything they say anymore as socialism/statism is a failed ideology and the they know it. They lie repeatedly about nearly every major or semi-major topic. The IRS scandal, the multiple DOJ scandals, the NSA blatant violation of the 4th Amendment scandal, the Benghazi scandal, the VA scandals affecting facilities in nearly half of the states of the Union, the Obamacare debacle and coverup, et cetera ad nauseam. If called out on it they just defect with baseless ad hominem attacks, mainly by calling the accusers racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, or by some variation on "wanting to make the poor eat cat food" and of course with some reference to the root of all evil, the Koch Brothers and the Citizens United case. It's no surprise that 85% of people think that Obama lies to them in a recent poll, with nearly 2 in 5 thinking nearly everything that he reads off of his teleprompter is a lie:

Fox Poll: Most Americans Think Obama Lies

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by Okey Dokie

Raise the gas tax instead. Once the sales tax money gets anywhere near the General Fund, God knows what sort of social program they'll find to spend it on.

This. Missouri has a very low gas tax. Raise that. You really need to because MO's roads (and transit) are underfunded.