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I forgot to mention we visited the Montreal CineRobotheque when we last visited Montreal and had a great time! I'm looking forward to discovering more films we don't know!
So excited for your kids! This would be such a great place to grow up... if I ever decide to have kids I'd definitely want to raise them here.
Thanks for mentioning the relocation service you are working with. Have you and your husband been offered jobs before the move, or is the relocation service helping you with seeking jobs?? I just ask because I am thinking of coming back to Montreal after graduate school in NYC, but I understand that in Quebec, you need to have an QAC (quebec acceptance certificate) as well as a canadian work permit - i would qualify for both, but i fiind it annoying that we need to have a job offer beforehand, to even apply for these things. That's why it seems like it would possibly be easier just to apply under immigration (rather than applying as a skilled worker) because then, i think, you can just trying to find a job once you are here.
Have you decided on a neighborhood yet?
As for things to get you into the Quebecois culture... there is a tv show (french language, shot in montreal) that I think captures the look of day-to-day life in montreal quite well, but i can't remember the name of it - i'll get back to you. There's tout le monde en parle, but i don't think it'd be easy to find english subtitles for that (or the other tv show really). For you and your husband, i'd suggest checking out the films by Xavier Dolan - he's the young hope of quebec cineima. Really great stuff - the content might be a bit too mature for your kids (not that it's graphic, just that it's 'Drama', you know). Montreal is also getting a lot of credibility these days for its independent music scene (being praised as the "new brooklyn").
Let me provide a slightly more jaded/realistic view of Montreal and Quebec as a New Yorker who has lived here since 2005. I promise, I am not trying to be a spoil-sport. I know several Americans who have moved here and really love it and a bunch who don't. In the end, I really think it depends on just how American your expectations are -- I'll elaborate on this in a bit.
Firstly, you certainly have the right attitude for life in Quebec. If you dive into the Francophone culture of Quebec, you'll be a step ahead. The language politics in Quebec are maddening to put it mildly but if you're able to stay above the fray by accepting that French is or should be the one and only language of Quebec, you'll stay happy. Be prepared to ignore the random Francophone who chooses to lecture your visiting family member for speaking English, or the one who goes off on a rant in a Korean restaurant because the proprietor is struggling in French. Laugh to yourself when you are ignored when you try to use English to explain a complicated issue to a government employee (yes, all these things have happened to me.) Let me say that I have met very, very many wonderful people in Quebec (jerks are not the majority here as they are not generally anywhere) but the jerks you meet will usually be jerks about language.
I have no personal experience of the school system in Quebec but one thing you should probably know is that the French public school system has outrageously high drop-out rates -- much higher than the English public school system which your children will not be allowed to attend. Sounds like this is not so much a problem for you but I'd also point out that your children will not be allowed to attend even an English private school (it's complicated to explain why, but that's the deal.) As an aside, the "English" schools are actually bilingual, usually offering half of their classes in French and half in English.
The healthcare system is crumbling; there's no way around that fact. Over one-third of the people living in Montreal do not have a regular doctor. Chances are that you will not either. The reason for this is also complicated (and political) but, trust me, this is the case. Further, if you need a specialist (which are even in shorter supply than GPs), you will be referred out and, as someone else has said, you will wait a long time. True story: last year, I got fairly sick and it was decided that I needed a colonoscopy. I was given a number to call and when I did, the receptionist told me to call back in six months as they had "closed their appointment book." (The current waiting time for a colonoscopy in Quebec is three years, by the way.) When I went back to my GP (who has opted out of the provincial health plan and so I have pay him -- only way to get a GP in Montreal) he told me "Yeah, it's not right but if pay them $500, they'll get you in within the week.) That's when I reinstated my American medical insurance. One odd twist in the whole thing is that, because of the doctor shortage, the province is looking the other way when doctors start private clinics (further exacerbating the shortage) but private, general health insurance is illegal. Go figure. Overcrowded hospitals are regular occurrences here. In fact, last time I was at St. Mary's they had posters up boasting that they were averaging only 10-20% overcrowding. Last time I was at the emergency room in New York, I waited maybe 15 minutes to be seen. When I took my boyfriend to the emergency room in Montreal, it took 14 hours for him to see a doctor (I'm not exaggerating.) And, don't think the language thing goes away when you're sick. There are some bilingual hospitals that are mostly downtown and on the Westside. If you go to a Francophone hospital, it is likely that you won't even be understood by those treating you.
Taxes, as another poster pointed out, are extraordinarily high. It is truly a shock even coming from a "high-tax" state like New York. You may wonder what you are paying for once you see/experience the crumbling infrastructure (and I'm not talking "well-used" like what you may see in New York: overpasses on major downtown highways are collapsing, a sinkhole formed in a major downtown intersection two weeks ago and three years ago a woman dining in a restaurant was killed when a concrete balcony fell on her -- corrupt building inspections. Today's newspaper ponders whether Old Montreal is next to crumble.)
Food costs just as much if not more than in New York (and the sales tax: 15.5%, is applied to things that it would not be applied to back home: clothes are taxed, for instance.) Further, the standard of customer service is very different in Quebec as well. I know it sounds petty, but you will be actually shocked at just how long you will wait to pay for groceries here. Also, the concept of 24 hour anything is pretty much non-existent.
Banks are a surprise as well. Do not expect that, as in the U.S., that a bank must legally clear a check in one or two days. Here it is entirely at the discretion of the bank. In fact, do not expect that a bank must legally treat a deposit made to an ATM machine like any other deposit as in the U.S.. I made a cash deposit at a ScotiaBank ATM (because the line was 20 people long with one teller working) and it took a week and a half for the bank to credit my account. When I called to complain, I was told, basically, if I didn't like it I was welcome to find a new bank. Oh, and banks are open from like 10 am to 3 pm, just like they used to be in America...in the '60s. ;-)
Generally everything is more expensive here than in the US. And, there is much less variety in stores here. There's one middle-range department store (the Bay) and two very high-end department stores and that's about it. Everyone winds up at Canadian Tire which is kind of what you might expect if KMart and your local hardware store had a baby.
Let me say here that I realize one reason you say you'd like to move to Quebec is that it is not as "consumerist" or "mercantile" as, say, New York but I'm trying to point out the things that you will encounter that will be very different. Quebec is, frankly, a much less prosperous place than the Northeast; it may also be that there is less of a gap between rich and poor here, I will admit. However, salaries are (much) lower while prices and taxes are (significantly) higher. Real estate is relatively inexpensive, so that's one bonus. Quebec is also much less individualistic than the U.S. and I don't know how to explain this but you will find it cropping up in weird ways.
So, that leads me to the major realization that I had while living in Quebec: I'm an American. This came as a surprise to me. Before I moved here, I, too, loved the French Language and I, too, loved travelling abroad and sampling other cultures (lived in France for a year and the Netherlands for a year and a half.) I always felt like I was a 'citizen of the world.' In fact, I left New York for a lot of the reasons you say you would like to leave. However, for me, after a six month to a year honeymoon when I was entranced with the differences, Quebec never really added up. After a while I realized it's because I have very American expectations about some things: I expect medical care to be immediately available, for example; I expect to get good value and service when I'm paying for something; and I bristle when I encounter heavy-handed officialdom. Lastly, on the language issue, (and as an American, when you hear "language" you think "race" -- it's as touchy as that topic is back home) I found that having a love and respect for a language/culture wore off very quickly when I didn't feel that sentiment was returned.
In any case, I realize that some of this makes me sound like a jerk or that I'm trying to rain on your parade. I promise you, I'm not. The cultural differences between the Northeastern U.S. and Quebec are vast and in some ways hidden and you will find yourself puzzled over the smallest things. In the end, if you decide that Quebec is the place for you and your family, I wish you the absolute best of luck.
As to neighborhoods, if you want a French neighborhood, you might look at Rosemont, especially near Masson. It's a working class neighborhood that is quickly gentrifying so it is both very French, with some nice shops/restaurants and close enough to the center city that you could be near its amenities (and bilingual hospitals.)
**Lastly, please investigate fully what it will take to qualify to practice in Quebec if you are going to continue your career. Psychologists are abundant in Quebec/Montreal (one reason is that there is such a shortage of Psychiatrists.) I looked it up quickly and you will have to 1) Have your education certified by the Quebec Order of Psychologists as being equivalent to that offered in Quebec; 2) Pass the dreaded government French Language test; and 3) Pass a professional ethics course.
Firstly, you certainly have the right attitude for life in Quebec. If you dive into the Francophone culture of Quebec, you'll be a step ahead. The language politics in Quebec are maddening to put it mildly but if you're able to stay above the fray by accepting that French is or should be the one and only language of Quebec, you'll stay happy. Be prepared to ignore the random Francophone who chooses to lecture your visiting family member for speaking English, or the one who goes off on a rant in a Korean restaurant because the proprietor is struggling in French. Laugh to yourself when you are ignored when you try to use English to explain a complicated issue to a government employee (yes, all these things have happened to me.) Let me say that I have met very, very many wonderful people in Quebec (jerks are not the majority here as they are not generally anywhere) but the jerks you meet will usually be jerks about language.
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Awesome, post, Legget. I might want to add that since you have been there since 2005, you have been living in a relatively quiet period w.r.t. language. I was there in 1995 when "they" lost their second Referendum. Someone yelled at me on the Metro because I was reading an English book. I was also told that I would not be hired for a job because I went to McGill. Quebec will quickly become an unpleasant place to live if the Separatists stop bickering among themselves and get organized.
1995 was an awful year in our history. I was a child then, but the hate of that time marked me forever. Legget, nothing you say is untrue, it's a completely accurate and insightful post. At the same time, despite all of her problems, Montreal is a wonderful city, and I can look past all of her faults (although the faults are more Quebec's then Montreal's) because all of the amazing things about Montreal just make up for it for me. I hope that you'll come to love Montreal as I do. It has faults and virtues, like any place, but it is still a place where you can succeed in creating a heluva life.
Umm okay, I'm going to have to speak up here and say that I found that huge, nauseating post difficult to even get through. You make a few decent points, but mostly you sound totally absurd and like you have never step foot outside of downtown Montreal or something. Or like you have never just actually talked to the people around you.
The language issue is not *nearly* as bad as you make it sound. Do you speak french? Fluently? Are you nice about it? I'm a 24 year old American and I speak fluent french. I often have to ask people to repeat things, and sometimes tell them straight up that I don't understand, especially if they are laying on the quebecois-accent very thick. But I'll tell you: for the most part, people have thanked me, and been extremely kind and supportive that I can speak french. There have been little instances of rude people here and there (I've been living here 5+ years btw) but I would have to actually sit and ponder to come up with more than 5. Almost everyone is bilingual, no one cares in public. The idea of someone yelling at someone for speaking english is totally absurd and it is offensive that you would even write about that as if it is a daily occurrence, those people are nuts and even the quebecois think so. Christ... and come on, government employees are overwhelmingly bilingual. I have never had this kind of problem, except maybe with STM bus drivers, but that's not a language issue so much as it is class, I think. What I've experienced more than anything is people telling me my french is great for an American and that it's great that I'm trying. Same with most people I know. I think your attitude has a lot to do with it. People can pick up on that stuff. I will say that I probably felt a bit more resentment before I spoke french, but even then, it wasn't that bad - the only time it was very visible was if I was trying to get a job during the summers off of school. Those rude people, they're the francophones who can't speak english, and for the most part a lot of francophones are a little embarrassed by them for having a provincial attitude. I wouldn't say they're the norm by any means.
You are right about the wait times with the health care system, as well as having a GP - but come on, you talk about not thinking you are a typical american, but then you go to another country and think every person has "their own" doctor? Is this even common in NYC? If you go to a dr, you just go to a dr. Not everyone has their special doctor that is going to see them every time.
Taxes are high, but that's why we have the lowest tuition in north america, universal health care, public transit, better employment insurance, etc. You then go on to say that "everything costs more" - puh-lease. Except rent, tuition, health care, etc.
And what planet are you living on, seriously, that things aren't open 24h? I've seen more things open 24h here than in NYC. In my neighborhood alone there is a 24h coffee shop, grocery store, diner, mcdonalds, etc. And banks are only open till 3? Wtf? That is a flat out lie! They are open until normal times (6-7 pm or 8pm depending on the day). Also, maybe if you want to shop at department stores, you should stay in the United States. There are tons of places to shop, your post is totally preposterous. Also, if you go to a bank during the busy time, yes, there will be a bit of a wait. The american in me noticed that once as well, but you get used to it - you realize that it's not all about YOU, all the freaking time. You have to wait. Other people have to wait too. Get over it, and try to go places at different times. But as for your absurd notion that it takes a long time to get groceries - seriously - wtf are you talking about!? That is such a random and false thing to say. The grocery stores are normal. It is bizarre that you would even say that, you make this place sound like a 2nd world country. It's canada, not eastern europe. Try to get out more...
Let me provide a slightly more jaded/realistic view of Montreal and Quebec as a New Yorker who has lived here since 2005. I promise, I am not trying to be a spoil-sport. I know several Americans who have moved here and really love it and a bunch who don't. In the end, I really think it depends on just how American your expectations are -- I'll elaborate on this in a bit.
Firstly, you certainly have the right attitude for life in Quebec. If you dive into the Francophone culture of Quebec, you'll be a step ahead. The language politics in Quebec are maddening to put it mildly but if you're able to stay above the fray by accepting that French is or should be the one and only language of Quebec, you'll stay happy. Be prepared to ignore the random Francophone who chooses to lecture your visiting family member for speaking English, or the one who goes off on a rant in a Korean restaurant because the proprietor is struggling in French. Laugh to yourself when you are ignored when you try to use English to explain a complicated issue to a government employee (yes, all these things have happened to me.) Let me say that I have met very, very many wonderful people in Quebec (jerks are not the majority here as they are not generally anywhere) but the jerks you meet will usually be jerks about language.
I have no personal experience of the school system in Quebec but one thing you should probably know is that the French public school system has outrageously high drop-out rates -- much higher than the English public school system which your children will not be allowed to attend. Sounds like this is not so much a problem for you but I'd also point out that your children will not be allowed to attend even an English private school (it's complicated to explain why, but that's the deal.) As an aside, the "English" schools are actually bilingual, usually offering half of their classes in French and half in English.
The healthcare system is crumbling; there's no way around that fact. Over one-third of the people living in Montreal do not have a regular doctor. Chances are that you will not either. The reason for this is also complicated (and political) but, trust me, this is the case. Further, if you need a specialist (which are even in shorter supply than GPs), you will be referred out and, as someone else has said, you will wait a long time. True story: last year, I got fairly sick and it was decided that I needed a colonoscopy. I was given a number to call and when I did, the receptionist told me to call back in six months as they had "closed their appointment book." (The current waiting time for a colonoscopy in Quebec is three years, by the way.) When I went back to my GP (who has opted out of the provincial health plan and so I have pay him -- only way to get a GP in Montreal) he told me "Yeah, it's not right but if pay them $500, they'll get you in within the week.) That's when I reinstated my American medical insurance. One odd twist in the whole thing is that, because of the doctor shortage, the province is looking the other way when doctors start private clinics (further exacerbating the shortage) but private, general health insurance is illegal. Go figure. Overcrowded hospitals are regular occurrences here. In fact, last time I was at St. Mary's they had posters up boasting that they were averaging only 10-20% overcrowding. Last time I was at the emergency room in New York, I waited maybe 15 minutes to be seen. When I took my boyfriend to the emergency room in Montreal, it took 14 hours for him to see a doctor (I'm not exaggerating.) And, don't think the language thing goes away when you're sick. There are some bilingual hospitals that are mostly downtown and on the Westside. If you go to a Francophone hospital, it is likely that you won't even be understood by those treating you.
Taxes, as another poster pointed out, are extraordinarily high. It is truly a shock even coming from a "high-tax" state like New York. You may wonder what you are paying for once you see/experience the crumbling infrastructure (and I'm not talking "well-used" like what you may see in New York: overpasses on major downtown highways are collapsing, a sinkhole formed in a major downtown intersection two weeks ago and three years ago a woman dining in a restaurant was killed when a concrete balcony fell on her -- corrupt building inspections. Today's newspaper ponders whether Old Montreal is next to crumble.)
Food costs just as much if not more than in New York (and the sales tax: 15.5%, is applied to things that it would not be applied to back home: clothes are taxed, for instance.) Further, the standard of customer service is very different in Quebec as well. I know it sounds petty, but you will be actually shocked at just how long you will wait to pay for groceries here. Also, the concept of 24 hour anything is pretty much non-existent.
Banks are a surprise as well. Do not expect that, as in the U.S., that a bank must legally clear a check in one or two days. Here it is entirely at the discretion of the bank. In fact, do not expect that a bank must legally treat a deposit made to an ATM machine like any other deposit as in the U.S.. I made a cash deposit at a ScotiaBank ATM (because the line was 20 people long with one teller working) and it took a week and a half for the bank to credit my account. When I called to complain, I was told, basically, if I didn't like it I was welcome to find a new bank. Oh, and banks are open from like 10 am to 3 pm, just like they used to be in America...in the '60s. ;-)
Generally everything is more expensive here than in the US. And, there is much less variety in stores here. There's one middle-range department store (the Bay) and two very high-end department stores and that's about it. Everyone winds up at Canadian Tire which is kind of what you might expect if KMart and your local hardware store had a baby.
Let me say here that I realize one reason you say you'd like to move to Quebec is that it is not as "consumerist" or "mercantile" as, say, New York but I'm trying to point out the things that you will encounter that will be very different. Quebec is, frankly, a much less prosperous place than the Northeast; it may also be that there is less of a gap between rich and poor here, I will admit. However, salaries are (much) lower while prices and taxes are (significantly) higher. Real estate is relatively inexpensive, so that's one bonus. Quebec is also much less individualistic than the U.S. and I don't know how to explain this but you will find it cropping up in weird ways.
So, that leads me to the major realization that I had while living in Quebec: I'm an American. This came as a surprise to me. Before I moved here, I, too, loved the French Language and I, too, loved travelling abroad and sampling other cultures (lived in France for a year and the Netherlands for a year and a half.) I always felt like I was a 'citizen of the world.' In fact, I left New York for a lot of the reasons you say you would like to leave. However, for me, after a six month to a year honeymoon when I was entranced with the differences, Quebec never really added up. After a while I realized it's because I have very American expectations about some things: I expect medical care to be immediately available, for example; I expect to get good value and service when I'm paying for something; and I bristle when I encounter heavy-handed officialdom. Lastly, on the language issue, (and as an American, when you hear "language" you think "race" -- it's as touchy as that topic is back home) I found that having a love and respect for a language/culture wore off very quickly when I didn't feel that sentiment was returned.
In any case, I realize that some of this makes me sound like a jerk or that I'm trying to rain on your parade. I promise you, I'm not. The cultural differences between the Northeastern U.S. and Quebec are vast and in some ways hidden and you will find yourself puzzled over the smallest things. In the end, if you decide that Quebec is the place for you and your family, I wish you the absolute best of luck.
As to neighborhoods, if you want a French neighborhood, you might look at Rosemont, especially near Masson. It's a working class neighborhood that is quickly gentrifying so it is both very French, with some nice shops/restaurants and close enough to the center city that you could be near its amenities (and bilingual hospitals.)
**Lastly, please investigate fully what it will take to qualify to practice in Quebec if you are going to continue your career. Psychologists are abundant in Quebec/Montreal (one reason is that there is such a shortage of Psychiatrists.) I looked it up quickly and you will have to 1) Have your education certified by the Quebec Order of Psychologists as being equivalent to that offered in Quebec; 2) Pass the dreaded government French Language test; and 3) Pass a professional ethics course.
Interesting post. Most of it is opinion but there is one factual error that I highlighted. There are no restrictions on attending English-language private schools in Quebec. You can send your kids there regardless of status provided you are prepared to pay.
^ I have heard living in Quebec and traveling to Quebec as a tourist are two completely different things. As a tourist I have fallen in love with Montreal. It's such a beautiful city and deep contrast to Toronto where I am used to. There is always something to do in Montreal, the people love to party! I was just there on the weekend and it was great. Easy to get around, we rode the Bixie's all over the city. Restaurants are incredible! And I did not find that businesses were closed early. Many places in Old Port were open past midnight, same in the entertainment district. As for banks... I have no experience with that. In Ontario, most banks close at 4-5pm, with the exception of TD Canada Trust which is open 6 days a week, until 6 to 8pm on weekdays. I'm not sure if this is the same in Quebec.
But from what I saw, the infrastructure isn't that bad. Some of the bridges look old but still very safe. Then again, I don't live here. I can only talk as a tourist. People were very nice, and even the homeless people were bi-lingual! I had a fantastic time. The city has such an alive feeling, very open and accepting of all cultures.
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American in Montreal
