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My husband grew up in Sussex County. He also lived in Orlando and now Georgia. I grew up in FL. We are both teachers. We are desperate to get out of this backwards state and head up to rural NJ because it is a way better place to raise our kids. Here is my take:
Teachers in NJ contribute 5.5% of their salary to the pension plan according to my research. The rate in GA is 5.25, so it's about the same. Pay in NJ is the same as in GA when adjusted for cost of living. Our salary here ($42k) translates to $52k in Sussex county according to the salary calculators on the internet.
For those who think education is better when done "on the cheap", let me direct you to states like SC, FL, and GA. Average per pupil spending is only about $5,000. Education is not valued at all in the southern states. People are up in arms now about teacher unions (ha ha, we do NOT have them in the south!) and teacher pay. (ha ha, we just had 135 classroom teachers let go, a pay cut of 3%, benefits cost went up by 10%, deductible doubled, co-insurance doubled from 10% to 20%, and on top of that, the governor of GA imposed 3 unpaid furlough days on all teachers for 2009. You can bet your house that we will have 5 more unpaid days in 2010 because our state budget is crashing and we have no industry to turn to. So teachers here are making a lot less than we did last year! Meanwhile, we have more students enrolled and 55% of them are on free lunch and 30+% of kids here live in poverty. The stories I could tell you would blow your mind about things going in in school now. (8 year olds watching lesbian porn, 5th graders writing on the bathroom walls with their own feces, kids spending the night in the woods because drunk dad was driving the backhoe around threatening to bury them and their mom, just for starters) Teacher quality here is low, even worse than what we saw in FL. Everyone wants to put religion back in the schools (and believe me, it's already here). Teachers are very demoralized and many young newbies are leaving the profession.
Nobody cares that teacher pay is in the toilet here. The cry to cut taxes continues. There is no way taxes will ever be raised here. People want to go to a 4 day school week, 10 hours a day (even for 5 year olds who are in full-day kindergarten!) Meanwhile, the central office has no layoffs and they still travel out of state for retreats and such. It is nuts. The fat at the top refuses to budge while all of the cuts are at a level which directly impacts the classroom.
We have major gang problems in the schools (beatings, etc) and crime is out of control. Someone tried to abduct a 10 year old last week near my house, in a new, upscale neighborhood. The South is also a magnet for child molesters, with many more per capita than up north.
I used to teach in FL and have been following things down there recently. Seminole County is recognized as being a leader in education in the state, and home values reflect that. Voters there recently agreed to a 2-year special tax (avg cost to homeowner of $50) to fund the schools. Voters there see that school quality directly impacts their property values and quality of life and are very upset by the recent cuts.
I wonder how much of teacher pay is covered by the state of NJ vs. the local districts? In GA, I think most is covered by the state and then the local districts kick in a 10% supplement (which will probably go away soon). I also researched New Hampshire and it seemed like most of the funds there came from local districts instead of the state (no state income tax). School quality there varies widely depending on the district.
Final note: of course I realize that there are many reforms that need to be made to education. Pensions should be available to front line workers (teachers, police) but NOT to top level administrators & general office workers. Why should someone who makes $150k as a principal or city administrator get a heafty pension on top of that? Working conditions are not that tough for the office staff. Teachers and police are on the front lines every day. If a teacher is not on top of every detail at every minute of the day, a child could get injured and that teacher would lose his job.
(I once saved a child's life in the school cafeteria when I wasn't even responsible to be there) Teachers can't just relax, check e-mail, chat at the water cooler for a minute, etc like many office positions. We have to juggle 10 things at once and always anticipate what could happpen. I can't count how many parents I had tell me they could never handle being a teacher after they spent some time at our school. (1,400 elementary kids in a building built for 900, 36 kids per class)
My main point is that we should reward the front line folks and cut down on the overpaid top-level paper pushers. Make the money count in ways that help students the most!
So quit. This is a country with free employment... there's no slavery... you aren't required to stay there, you aren't required to work there, heck, you aren't even required to be a teacher if you either A) don't like what you're doing or B) don't feel like you're being compensated appropriate for what you are doing.
Don't come complain to me that you feel you should be entitled to more when there's a line 3 miles long to inherit your job with the benefits you currently have at the salary you're currently making if not LESS!
Look at the other thread in this forum about becoming a teacher or a police officer. It's incredibly challenging right now. Why? Because just about any joe shmoo is bright enough to get either a teaching certificate or pass the police office board exam (or whatever the heck education they require) and therefore potential supply is very high. Beyond that, when taking into account the supply of able bodied (and minded) people, the compensation is extremely high with OT (for cops) and 3 months off (for teachers) and pensions with health coverage for both at the age of 55. You're never going to find that in private industry and in private industry you're going to need a skill set that not just any joe shmoo can acquire.
Here's the facts... if the state couldn't fill teaching positions, they'd have to raise compensation. If a police department couldn't find applicants, they'd have to raise compensation. Neither are having problems, in fact they have many times more applications then they know what to do with. That's not a reflection of a work force that's undercompensated, it's the exact opposite.
Many many companies in my industry forced their entire staffs to take a 10% pay cut... they felt it would make them more competitive as a company and basically held the staff's hostage... there's a LOT of unemployed people out there who can do your job and would be willing to do it for less than you're making... take the pay cut or we'll find someone else who will. In a booming economy we all get the benefit, a surplus of job openings in any one sector will pull up salaries in all sectors as labor supply becomes smaller.. at the same time, in a weak economy, we all feel the pain and that's the way it should be.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that the private sector would adjust accordingly. Salaries may go down, other costs may be cut, but businesses could adjust. Pensions were once common amongst private businesses, and they didn't go bankrupt because of them.
I'm not talking about a pension mandate. I'm saying that corporations should be practicing more loyalty and fair play with their workers, and that if they did, pensions would be much more commonplace amongst private businesses.
It (meaning the relationship between employers and employees) IS most definitely about corporations (and many of the wealthy who own or run them or even invest in them) vs. the people who work for them and the communities of people who are affected by what happens to the people working for the corporations.
Funny that you mention "An entitlement mindset" because that's what you have... You believe corporations are entitled to do whatever they want to whomever they want.
Pensions worked before just like a ponzi scheme because the first few people in get the benefits and the whole process seems to work. A few years later to many people are on pension just like a ponzi and the whole thing collapses just like social security. You don't even own a house
pass the police office board exam (or whatever the heck education they require
Talk about a guy who doesn't have a clue what's needed to get on the job. Probably also a guy who never missed a holiday, birthday, family function or vacation because he was required to work the odd works and shifts. Probably the same guy who would ***** like a little girl if forced to stand out in the weather for more than a few minutes.
No wonder everyone thinks NJ is such a loser state..
Talk about a guy who doesn't have a clue what's needed to get on the job. Probably also a guy who never missed a holiday, birthday, family function or vacation because he was required to work the odd works and shifts. Probably the same guy who would ***** like a little girl if forced to stand out in the weather for more than a few minutes.
No wonder everyone thinks NJ is such a loser state..
Talk about a guy who doesn't have a clue what's needed to get on the job. Probably also a guy who never missed a holiday, birthday, family function or vacation because he was required to work the odd works and shifts. Probably the same guy who would ***** like a little girl if forced to stand out in the weather for more than a few minutes.
No wonder everyone thinks NJ is such a loser state..
Tell me... who forced you? Did they put a gun to your head to force you? Did they threaten your wife and children? Or did they simply say you'd be unemployed if you didn't?
Again, YOU made a choice to take that position... YOU made a choice to accept the responsibilities of that position... YOU are the one who's continuing to accept the compensation you receive for the responsibilities you have to carry out.
Whether I would do it or not is irrelevant... the fact is LOTS of people would do it.
You want to talk about me personally? I don't need to... why not? Because I have 3 college degrees which are both hard to earn due to the intellect required to pass the classes as well as simply being accepted to the schools I attended and graduated from. I made a decision in life to acquire a skill set that allows me to demand a salary I'm happy with and to enjoy work conditions I deem acceptable. It's not that I can't do your job, won't do your job... I quite simply don't need to do your job... I can do better, much better.
So quit. This is a country with free employment... there's no slavery... you aren't required to stay there, you aren't required to work there, heck, you aren't even required to be a teacher if you either A) don't like what you're doing or B) don't feel like you're being compensated appropriate for what you are doing.
I believe she left already, or did you not follow the entire thing (left one area).
You can't just pick up and easily switch career, especially when you LIKE TEACHING. The key here is also, if people like her quit, who is left besides the people who do not care? I have seen that in my old district. The only ones that were not bothered by things like this were not bothered by not teaching the kids what they needed either.
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Don't come complain to me that you feel you should be entitled to more when there's a line 3 miles long to inherit your job with the benefits you currently have at the salary you're currently making if not LESS!
No, there isn't. There really isn't! Teaching is a hard, unforgiving job that is not just the school day. There are lessons and tests to prepare and grade and many other things that most people do not see until they try it for themselves.
So many are ignorant of the sheer amount of work needed to be a GOOD teacher.
The catch 22 is that most that do teaching, CARE about the students. The ones that CARE are the ones that try, and the ones that try and are treated poorly leave more than the ones that do not care and do not try.
BTW, especially for the more technical subjects, there is a teacher shortage.
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Look at the other thread in this forum about becoming a teacher or a police officer. It's incredibly challenging right now. Why? Because just about any joe shmoo is bright enough to get either a teaching certificate or pass the police office board exam (or whatever the heck education they require) and therefore potential supply is very high.
What country is this?
Because standards have been lowered then all of a sudden teaching means nothing? Guess what, THEY NEEDED THESE PEOPLE SO THEY LOWERED STANDARDS, but that doe snot mean they are not looking for QUALIFIED individuals to fill the ranks. And if you pay crap, you only attract the bottom feeders or the dedicated ones that think they can make a difference and are crushed at the current system AND from the attitudes of people like yourself.
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Beyond that, when taking into account the supply of able bodied (and minded) people, the compensation is extremely high with OT (for cops) and 3 months off (for teachers) and pensions with health coverage for both at the age of 55. You're never going to find that in private industry and in private industry you're going to need a skill set that not just any joe shmoo can acquire.
3 months is not off. Most teachers are required to go back to class over the summer. Many have to hold a summer session (once every couple of weeks) that has additional coursework they have to prepare, grade and take care of. Have you ever contemplated having to take classes EVERY SUMMER well into your 40's and 50's? Probably not.
Also, School is ending later and starting earlier. The magical 3 months is shortening to 2 in all but hyper-expensive colleges.
One more thing, have you ever graded papers? Made lesson plans? You think there is enough time in a school day to set up labs, make tests, grade papers, make, collect and grade homework? No, that is all done after hours. Seeing my own mother up until 10-11 at night grading papers on possibly 3 out of ever 5 days of the week lets me know that teachers that DO THEIR JOB work many more hours than they are ever paid. But the common public never sees this.
Oh, and don't forget with having to deal with the current litigious parenthood. Where parents used to believe their teachers and discipline their kids, now anything gone wrong has to be the teachers fault. It is like combining child care with education with customer service. Not an easy combo.
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Here's the facts... if the state couldn't fill teaching positions, they'd have to raise compensation.
Or lower requirements, as you stated earlier. The state would not HAVE to do anything if the voters do not approve of the spending.
BTW, why do you think property values are better in places with better schools? You spend the money, you get results.
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If a police department couldn't find applicants, they'd have to raise compensation. Neither are having problems, in fact they have many times more applications then they know what to do with. That's not a reflection of a work force that's under-compensated, it's the exact opposite.
Please site sources for this. You seem to be saying "all is well in Whoville" while ignoring the big old elephant with Jim Carey's voice.
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Many many companies in my industry forced their entire staffs to take a 10% pay cut... they felt it would make them more competitive as a company and basically held the staff's hostage... there's a LOT of unemployed people out there who can do your job and would be willing to do it for less than you're making... take the pay cut or we'll find someone else who will.
Then why don't YOU do it? Turn your own argument back on you. So many say it is so easy and the benefits are there and all that pay!!! Yet they never do it themselves.
MANY have tried, and HATED it. You do not know the job until you, or a family member has truly done the job.
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In a booming economy we all get the benefit, a surplus of job openings in any one sector will pull up salaries in all sectors as labor supply becomes smaller.. at the same time, in a weak economy, we all feel the pain and that's the way it should be.
No, his is the way it has always been. Recession and boom. Your linking to th recession is an invalid correlation used often by government and business to validate cost cutting. "Oh but what about this!".
Even when things were going well, people did not want more taxes, to every pay raise had to be awarded by committee.
You are just being close minded about all of this and ignorant of the behind-the-scenes reality of the situation. Please spare us from the stereotypical "you have it easy" and "it's a recession" BS.
Last edited by Ninjahedge; 11-04-2009 at 10:52 AM..
Pensions worked before just like a ponzi scheme because the first few people in get the benefits and the whole process seems to work. A few years later to many people are on pension just like a ponzi and the whole thing collapses just like social security. You don't even own a house
Pensions need to be flexible, but not to the point where people lose their retirement because they change it at last minute.
I think a few things need changing. Elimination of Pension for anyone earning more than, say, $100K base. A CAP to the amount paid in pension to prevent the executive "golden parachute" in which a Super's pay is boosted 60% in the last 2 years to give him his full salary (two years ago) as his pension.
Taxation of pensions that migrate. No taking the money and running. Nothing prohibitive, mind you, but an unwillingness to contribute back into the loop does not help anybody, really.
And that is about it. The BIG problem we have now is that cursed Health Care (in more ways than one). The people who CAN afford it are living much longer (until they can't afford it! ). Retiring at 65 was fine when the average lifespan was 72, but now with many living into their 80's and 90's, the balance is shifting. We have to find some way to be able to keep people PRODUCTIVE longer, not just alive...
Last edited by Ninjahedge; 11-04-2009 at 10:52 AM..
You want to talk about me personally? I don't need to... why not? Because I have 3 college degrees which are both hard to earn due to the intellect required to pass the classes as well as simply being accepted to the schools I attended and graduated from. I made a decision in life to acquire a skill set that allows me to demand a salary I'm happy with and to enjoy work conditions I deem acceptable.
My guess is that you are not in PR or Customer Support.
So quit. This is a country with free employment... there's no slavery... you aren't required to stay there, you aren't required to work there, heck, you aren't even required to be a teacher if you either A) don't like what you're doing or B) don't feel like you're being compensated appropriate for what you are doing.
Don't come complain to me that you feel you should be entitled to more when there's a line 3 miles long to inherit your job with the benefits you currently have at the salary you're currently making if not LESS!
All sorts of people are lining up to do all sorts of work that they normally wouldn't even think twice about - because of the economy. That's great for the next 2 or 3 years but what happens in 4 years when they all jump ship and pursue their real passions? You can't have a police force or teaching staff that's a few old-timers with an army of rookies. That's a recipe for poor quality results (and as far as police go it's already the case).
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Look at the other thread in this forum about becoming a teacher or a police officer. It's incredibly challenging right now. Why? Because just about any joe shmoo is bright enough to get either a teaching certificate or pass the police office board exam (or whatever the heck education they require) and therefore potential supply is very high. Beyond that, when taking into account the supply of able bodied (and minded) people, the compensation is extremely high with OT (for cops) and 3 months off (for teachers) and pensions with health coverage for both at the age of 55.
The compensation for being a cop isn't extremely high considering the conditions and making a lot of OT money by working 60 hours a week in an already stressful job isn't a life worth living for most people - it's why the average new police officer only lasts 33 months on the job (and for teachers it's only slightly longer). So you better hope those folks stay lined up around the block to be cops (and btw - there is no surplus of teachers on the state or national level) because they're quitting just as quickly as they get hired. When you have high turnover at your workplace it's because the working conditions suck or because people aren't being paid enough for the work they're being asked to perform . . . and since they can make more money in the private sector - they do. So it seems like, for all of your exhortation to let the market do what it's supposed to do, it seems to be working just fine.
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Here's the facts... if the state couldn't fill teaching positions, they'd have to raise compensation. If a police department couldn't find applicants, they'd have to raise compensation. Neither are having problems, in fact they have many times more applications then they know what to do with. That's not a reflection of a work force that's undercompensated, it's the exact opposite.
Facts? where are these facts coming from? The state doesn't fill police and teacher positions. Local PDs and School Districts do.
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Many many companies in my industry forced their entire staffs to take a 10% pay cut... they felt it would make them more competitive as a company and basically held the staff's hostage... there's a LOT of unemployed people out there who can do your job and would be willing to do it for less than you're making... take the pay cut or we'll find someone else who will. In a booming economy we all get the benefit, a surplus of job openings in any one sector will pull up salaries in all sectors as labor supply becomes smaller.. at the same time, in a weak economy, we all feel the pain and that's the way it should be.
So because you work in an industry that's less relevant than it used to be you're angry because a teacher has better job security than you do? Or because they're public servants they should have to grovel and beg for every penny - because anyone could do their job?
I used to be a public servant in a white-collar, non-union position. Without going back to school for another 3 years you couldn't do my job. I worked for two different cities and a state government. In every one of them I was working as hard as my private sector peers and making at least 50% less. I stuck with it for 5 years because of the benefits and job security. Then I got laid off during a round of state budget cuts. I'm never going back to the public sector. Anyone with any talent moves to the private sector because of the pay and recognition. Mediocre pay gets mediocre players.
Because I have 3 college degrees which are both hardBecause I have 3 college degrees which are both hard to earn due to the intellect required to earn due to the intellect required
Wow !! Big deal. I have a BS in Criminal Justice and Business Administration along with the Associates in Police Science. I did it while working a full time job with rotating shifts.
Yet you still don't have a clue what is required to gain employment in the field, nor are you even capable beyond what you consider your educational credits as a job requirement. People like you who think one can be successful in the field based on your attendance in a college classroom are the first ones to leave because they quickly realize that you can not learn the job by watching a high tech visual aid. That is simply a foundation yet you seem to think it is the end all.
Some people in that state really make me sick. You want to blame your ills on everyone but themselves. Well, let's think about it. Who caused this mess? I'd say all those college educated smart a*ses in governemnt and business who screwed over the general public and took off for greener pastures.
You're right about one thing. No one forced anyone to take the job. No one is forcing you to stay in the state either. What you're wrong about it the worth and quite frankly, yours isn't much in my book.
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). Retiring at 65 was fine when the average lifespan was 72, but now with many living into their 80's and 90's, the balance is shifting. We have to find some way to be able to keep people PRODUCTIVE longer, not just alive... 
