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You are correct in saying that 80% of Puerto Ricans are not white. This is true.
Here is my view on this. Puerto Ricans have a whole range to describe their various types of mixed ancestries and appearance. But these are not taken into account in the US census. They are asked to identify their "race" as white, black, or other. They know they re not black. They don't quite know what other means and so they check white, because they think that their light skins make that the best answer.
You will note that in NYC Puerto Ricans have a different response with most checking "other" because they fully well know that white isn't the same as light, within a US context.
So I really don't know if asked if they are blanco/a whether 80% will respond "si", instead of the usual trigueno, etc.
First off if a West Indian has a lifetime ambition of welfare, why come to the USA where the safety net is skimpy and a life of dependency on public assistance is one of being humiliated and impoverished. Canada is more generous and so if that's the goal why would they migrate to the USA.
People come to the USA to WORK!!!!
I got my stats from NYC Dept of Planning. These stats reflect what was happening in 2011. And why have you not built in the Russian/Hasidic Jews into your model of those who use welfare. Want to see immigrants whose main goal is welfare dependency focus on those groups. Despite their high levels of education immigrant Russians have low labor force participation rates and relatively high welfare dependency as many arrived as refugees.
I am interested in finding out from you why you think that foreign born blacks have higher welfare usage than AAs when their incomes are higher, their poverty rates lower, and their home ownership rates are higher. Estimates are that 5% get some sort of public assistance which includes unemployment insurance as well. And AAs are better off than those PRs who remain in NYC so their situation is even MORE dire.
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Also HRA does NOT break out blacks by ethnicity as indeed the general lament is that every "racial" group is allowed to reflect their ethnicity except blacks who are assumed to be all African American.
I will not debate about what US born blacks of Caribbean descent are doing except to say that their behavior will be something between their immigrant parents and their AA peers. You will have a hard time trying to convince me that they are worse off than AAs. Indeed it has been often predicted by many who study immigrants that those who resemble American minorities (AAs and Hispanics) might as they assimilate, experience downward mobility by picking up negative habit of the native underrepresented minorities. So West Indians, Haitians and maybe Black Africans have this problem, in addition to Dominicans. East and South Asians don't.
This may hurt your feelings but blacks from the English speaking Caribbean are on average better off than AAs. There are a whole host of reason for this, not the least being the very selectivity of migration, and the fact that we arrive speaking English, so don't encounter they difficulties that Dominicans do. Dominicans are also among the least educated migrants to NYC as well.
Indeed a feature of West Indians in 2011 is, despite being less educated (21% college graduates vs. the NYC average of 34%), they earn comparable incomes as do NYers on average and are more likely to be home owners, less likely to be poor, and less likely to live in overcrowded conditions.
This is NYC data. You however walk down White Plains RD, with its very skewed representation of West Indians (you totally miss the middle class who shop in Westchester or in Coop City) and then imagine that AAs are more successful. I have met many middle class AAs who need to hold on to this myth, but its a myth, and you are fooling yourselves by pretending that the plight of a large swathe of AAs doesn't exist. And that this element hasn't had a negative impact on how the off spring of foreign blacks, and Caribbean Hispanics have assimilated into NYC.
CARIBNYC, West Indians are no success story.
They simply have the white mans jobs and education. This might hurt your feelings.
Go to any jail NYC. You'll find plenty of black and Hispanic immigrants and children of those immigrants.
The plight of large swathe of African Americans exists for a multitude of reasons including lack of education, dependency on welfare, delinquency, chronic unemployment, disenfranchisement, etc. When it comes to black Americans and black Caribbean immigrants, native born black Americans just have the worst stereotypes and many people believe them.
dude I know black Americans (non immigrant) whom themselves and all their children are college educated, have never been to jail, weren't born out of wedlock, or have never lived in single parent homes. DO NOT paint African Americans with the same brush.
NYWRITERDUDE just clearly stated significant points as to why West Indians or immigrants period MAY have slightly higher levels of achievement, whether academically, in business ownership, home ownership, etc. Many of these immigrants were educated, employed, and have transferable skills from their countries of birth. Many even owned businesses and have homes in their home countries too and were doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.
Yes, people come to the US to attain an education and work jobs. I hope you don't think everyone in the West Indies is hard working and ambitious. The ones who do often make there way to the United States. The disparities between black Americans and people who arrive here from the Caribbean islands are again a multitude of reasons and some are quite obvious.
You may be surprised but there are South Asians (Indians) who live in poverty when coming to the US. They are usually lower caste Indians and very poor though.
I . Don't even lie and claim that the children of Caribbean immigrants do any better than AAs or Puerto Ricans post high school when it comes to getting good educations.
I specifically stated in virtually every post on this topic that I will not speak about US born blacks of Caribbean descent because there is no credible way of identifying who these people are, given that some identify as Caribbean and others as AA. And the ones who identify as Caribbean tend to be more likely from middle class backgrounds thereby skewing the sample.
How ever the average NYC household earned just under $50k in 2011 which was exactly what the average Jamaican earned.
So how ever the average NYer might earn a living it appears that Jamaicans are doing no worse. And while they may not work as investment bankers or in high tech (few blacks on the whole do so that destroys any myth that you may wish to peddle that we are worse off than AAs), many are in the healthcare sector, many pulling down $100k because they get overtime, and have part time jobs on top of that.
And so many might work at HRA, but then I told you that they are only slightly more likely to be in the public sector than your average NYer, therefore definitely LESS likely than AAs who are heavily tied to the public sector.
You know I know loads of Caribbean people involved in real estate, some as small developers. Does that qualify me to suggest that this group is demographically significant within the AngloCaribbean population as a whole? I think not.
They simply have the white mans jobs and education. This might hurt your feelings.
Go to any jail NYC. You'll find plenty of black and Hispanic immigrants and children of those immigrants.
The plight of large swathe of African Americans exists for a multitude of reasons including lack of education, dependency on welfare, delinquency, chronic unemployment, disenfranchisement, etc. When it comes to black Americans and black Caribbean immigrants, native born black Americans just have the worst stereotypes and many people believe them.
dude I know black Americans (non immigrant) whom themselves and all their children are college educated, have never been to jail, weren't born out of wedlock, or have never lived in single parent homes. DO NOT paint African Americans with the same brush.
NYWRITERDUDE just clearly stated significant points as to why West Indians or immigrants period MAY have slightly higher levels of achievement, whether academically, in business ownership, home ownership, etc. Many of these immigrants were educated, employed, and have transferable skills from their countries of birth. Many even owned businesses and have homes in their home countries too and were doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.
Yes, people come to the US to attain an education and work jobs. I hope you don't think everyone in the West Indies is hard working and ambitious. The ones who do often make there way to the United States. The disparities between black Americans and people who arrive here from the Caribbean islands are again a multitude of reasons and some are quite obvious.
You may be surprised but there are South Asians (Indians) who live in poverty when coming to the US. They are usually lower caste Indians and very poor though.
Another rant based on some emotion. And of course not backed by data. Snd for the record NYwiter went on some rant about West Indians on welfare and screaming that we are more likely to be welfare recipients than AAs. No evidence furnished to back that claim, and mass hysteria when IO show NYC data to correct him.
Did I not say that immigrants are a selected group, and that many of the less ambitious stay home to live off the remittances of those who migrate. And did I not say that many of their kids are not doing well, due, you must admit to their negative exposures to the less successful group of AAs.
Don't know what "white man's education and jobs" you are ranting about because I don't see too many AA owned businesses and you receive the same "white man's" education that the rest of us do.
They are a success story to the extent that they are an immigrant group which is not earning less and are MORE likely than average NYers to own homes. So their socio-economic profile beats many who have been living in this country for generations. This despite being black and therefore suffering all the racism that any other black group in this country must endure.
Now pull down data on AAs in NYC for yourself and do your own analysis. And I will not discuss who is in jail if I were you because we both know that AAs are way more over represented in jail than any other group, and that the US born Caribbean descendants who end up there are often there because they have assimilated into the less successful element of the AA population.
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You know I can go off on a tangent about why a group which has been living in this country for 200 years has let other groups, even black immigrant groups, outperform them, but I will not because I am well aware of the history of this country. And I am also aware that it is blatantly unfair to compare a self selected immigrant group with one whose ancestors arrived as slaves and were hobbled for all but the last 50 years by some of the most bigoted oppression that has occurred within modern history.
But what I will not do is allow you, NYWriter are any middle class AA massage you wounded egos by pretending that West Indians are a bunch of low lives on welfare and in crime while you assert otherwise for Black Americans.
We would never have gotten into this if NYwriter hadn't started on some notion that West Indians come to the USA, with its paltry social safety net, to live off welfare. Come on give us some credit. If that's what we want we would go to Canada where any teenage girl who fights with her mother only need get pregnant to have govt get her an apartment of HER OWN.
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...and for all of those fun facts, you get a GOLD STAR my friend. You've done a fine job of convincing "babylon" that you are the ultimate super negro. Nuf respect.
Another rant based on some emotion. And of course not backed by data. Snd for the record NYwiter went on some rant about West Indians on welfare and screaming that we are more likely to be welfare recipients than AAs. No evidence furnished to back that claim, and mass hysteria when IO show NYC data to correct him.
Did I not say that immigrants are a selected group, and that many of the less ambitious stay home to live off the remittances of those who migrate. And did I not say that many of their kids are not doing well, due, you must admit to their negative exposures to the less successful group of AAs.
Don't know what "white man's education and jobs" you are ranting about because I don't see too many AA owned businesses and you receive the same "white man's" education that the rest of us do.
They are a success story to the extent that they are an immigrant group which is not earning less and are MORE likely than average NYers to own homes. So their socio-economic profile beats many who have been living in this country for generations. This despite being black and therefore suffering all the racism that any other black group in this country must endure.
Now pull down data on AAs in NYC for yourself and do your own analysis. And I will not discuss who is in jail if I were you because we both know that AAs are way more over represented in jail than any other group, and that the US born Caribbean descendants who end up there are often there because they have assimilated into the less successful element of the AA population.
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You know I can go off on a tangent about why a group which has been living in this country for 200 years has let other groups, even black immigrant groups, outperform them, but I will not because I am well aware of the history of this country. And I am also aware that it is blatantly unfair to compare a self selected immigrant group with one whose ancestors arrived as slaves and were hobbled for all but the last 50 years by some of the most bigoted oppression that has occurred within modern history.
But what I will not do is allow you, NYWriter are any middle class AA massage you wounded egos by pretending that West Indians are a bunch of low lives on welfare and in crime while you assert otherwise for Black Americans
We would never have gotten into this if NYwriter hadn't started on some notion that West Indians come to the USA, with its paltry social safety net, to live off welfare. Come on give us some credit. If that's what we want we would go to Canada where any teenage girl who fights with her mother only need get pregnant to have govt get her an apartment of HER OWN.
Yes, the jobs and education created by WHITE men, in a dominant WHITE controlled socio/political/economic system.
Did you read my post clearly?
Where did I say West Indians were low lives?
I just said don't act as if there aren't any West Indian drug dealers, or West Indians who ended up in jail. Thats all I said. and you just said earlier that West Indians have a high out of wedlock birth rate in an earlier post. You act as if "negative behavior" amongst West Indians somehow correlates to them being exposed to African American culture, which I disagree with. You act as if there are no ghettos in Kingston or any other Caribbean island.
They outperform African Americans probably because they did not have to endure chronic disenfranchisement, widespread discrimination, segregation, etc. and both NYWRITERDUDE and I both stated that many immigrants are educated and have business capital, had professional careers in their home countries so that gives them an advantage over black Americans whom often do not.
There is no one reason for these problems or issues, but rather a multitude.
And yes, many West Indians think they are better than African Americans and want to distance yourselves from American blacks. Maybe thats what it is. SIMPLE AS THAT. I've seen many who do.
and as for jails, we should look at the composition of who is there. WHY NOT. I can guarantee you most of the black males are there for either 1. drug possession 2. assault 3. theft or simple petty street crimes. and nothing more. In order to solve these problems a multitude of issues will have to be addressed.
oh yeah and it has nothing to do with race or biological inferiority. Many other groups, cultures, UNDERPERFORM as well.
...and for all of those fun facts, you get a GOLD STAR my friend. You've done a fine job of convincing "babylon" that you are the ultimate super negro. Nuf respect.
NYwriter I showed you data. You then go on some tirade about your impressions. The stats come from 2011. I selected Jamaicans because they are the largest group and the others are similar in profile. Do you want me to list all when this wouldn't add any additional facts.
Now I know that I have hurt the egos of some middle class black Americans here but facts are facts. Black immigrants are better off. Even in NYC, and definitely when we look at those who have either migrated from NYC, or who never came in the first place.
Until you can furnish proof to back your case using independent data I will stand by my use of NYC Dept of Planning data for 2011.
And saying "I know West Indians who deal drugs" seems silly when you know full well that AAs have a high level of criminal behavior, indeed higher than any group inclusive of foreign born blacks. Just look at the nationwide stats for blacks and see for yourself.
Foreign born blacks only account for 10% of the total, so are too small to skew the data. The African component being a highly select group, given that those who migrate to the USA, on average are the most educated immigrants, even if this doesn't translate into having the highest incomes among immigrants.
Get back to me when West Indians penetrate NYC's professional jobs in large numbers. You know, doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers. The stats are out there that these fields are mostly white and asian, and they do not break down the ethnicies of Blacks in these fields.
Can you name me a West Indian lady with the professional achievements of Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Mae Jemison, or Condoleeza Rice? Please start naming out West Indians IMMIGRANTS (not US born children, they are a different matter) who have careers of note.
And I don't consider civil service a career of note unless you're at an upper level position in the city (and these positions are mainly filed by whites).
Last edited by NyWriterdude; 12-26-2013 at 06:39 AM..
They outperform African Americans probably because they did not have to endure chronic disenfranchisement, widespread discrimination, segregation, etc. and both NYWRITERDUDE and I both stated that many immigrants are educated and have business capital, had professional careers in their home countries so that gives them an advantage over black Americans whom often do not.
There is no one reason for these problems or issues, but rather a multitude.
And yes, many West Indians think they are better than African Americans and want to distance yourselves from American blacks. Maybe thats what it is. SIMPLE AS THAT. I've seen many who do.
and as for jails, we should look at the composition of who is there. WHY NOT. I can guarantee you most of the black males are there for either 1. drug possession 2. assault 3. theft or simple petty street crimes. and nothing more. In order to solve these problems a multitude of issues will have to be addressed.
oh yeah and it has nothing to do with race or biological inferiority. Many other groups, cultures, UNDERPERFORM as well.
I actually did not address Caribbean immigrants when I spoke of people already coming to the US with degrees or good educations. I was speaking more of the wealthy Asian and European foreigners, who come to the top universities in big numbers. There's a smaller group of Africans who fall into this category as well (parents were top business people or government people at home, get to send their children to wealthy private universities).
But if you want to be seriously honest about the performance of economics and of immigrants, the emerging economies that are doing worthwhile unfortunately are not Black.
The third world nation's with worthwhile economic growth are East, Southeast, or South Asia, or they are Latin (Mexico, parts of Central America, Brazil). Granted there are Blacks in Latin America, but not to the extent that there in the English Caribbean. Unfortunately, the English Caribbean, like Africa or any other places that has over a certain percentage of Blacks remains a laughing stock in terms of economic development, scientific discovery, or any sort of progress.
So go ahead, Carib with your brags, Carib. Even if its true that West Indians do better than ghetto AAs in NYC, that certainly isn't saying much. Please get back to me when West Indians can even put themselves in the same sentence with Jews and Asians in terms of economic influence and academic achievements without being laughed out of the room.
Another rant based on some emotion. And of course not backed by data. Snd for the record NYwiter went on some rant about West Indians on welfare and screaming that we are more likely to be welfare recipients than AAs. No evidence furnished to back that claim, and mass hysteria when IO show NYC data to correct him.
Did I not say that immigrants are a selected group, and that many of the less ambitious stay home to live off the remittances of those who migrate. And did I not say that many of their kids are not doing well, due, you must admit to their negative exposures to the less successful group of AAs.
Don't know what "white man's education and jobs" you are ranting about because I don't see too many AA owned businesses and you receive the same "white man's" education that the rest of us do.
They are a success story to the extent that they are an immigrant group which is not earning less and are MORE likely than average NYers to own homes. So their socio-economic profile beats many who have been living in this country for generations. This despite being black and therefore suffering all the racism that any other black group in this country must endure.
That's just it. Get back to me when West Indians get anywhere near Asians in terms of education or any other sort of achievement. You know very well that's not the case.
You saying Jamaicans are more successful than Black Americans is like saying a person on welfare is better off than a homeless person. I guess that's technical true, but that isn't saying that much when the better of person is still doing rather poorly.
Also, as someone who has been interviewing for work overseas, no Black majority country is even on my list! Africa and the Caribbean are poor and working in these countries overall are not seen as assets to one's career. Americans and Europeans who study abroad do not go to the Caribbean or Africa in large numbers.
I think you know very well the global status of Blacks in general is poor, Carib. You nearly go hysterical at times when some Latin people of African descent can avoid identifying themselves as Black (leaving you stuck with being called Black when you too would really rather not be associated with it).
But let's go to the homeowners. I remember living in the Jewish parts of Far Rockaway, which had beautifully landscaped homes. And I recall seeing the homes in Mt. Vernon, where you have a lot of Black homeowners (many of them Caribbean). They were poorly landscaped. There's a reason why areas that remain predominately white in NY tend to have much higher real estate values. And a reason most people would prefer a mostly white area in LI to a West Indian slum bordering the Bronx. The same reason why West Indians or AA who make it big tend to not live in West Indian or AA neighborhoods.
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The same reason why West Indians or AA who make it big tend to not live in West Indian or AA neighborhoods.
