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There may be some truth to your statement Kefir...but I tend to think it will be a tale of 2 countries. There will be those who have it all...and then those who are functionally dependent on the government for some or all of their livelihood. The middle will be smaller..and forced to live among those who are destitute.
Unless something radical changes with our economy, and that is entirely possible, we will be just limping along. It feels like there is no more excitement, energy or passion in this country for anything besides arguing and whatever the latest gossip is about Kardashian's uterus.
There may be some truth to your statement Kefir...but I tend to think it will be a tale of 2 countries. There will be those who have it all...and then those who are functionally dependent on the government for some or all of their livelihood. The middle will be smaller..and forced to live among those who are destitute.
Unless something radical changes with our economy, and that is entirely possible, we will be just limping along. It feels like there is no more excitement, energy or passion in this country for anything besides arguing and whatever the latest gossip is about Kardashian's uterus.
Me personally I don't think their is some truth to Kefir statement, I think their is plenty of truth to his statement. U.S is in a road of long decline. I remember my old man telling me it has to get worse before it gets better and he was right. I wont be surprised if more political meddeling along with slow economic growth will force states to secede. Me personanlly I don't want to live or ever see America breakup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King
I think the United States is well into a multi-decade long slow disintegration. It's only burp was the dot.com bubble. Whether this means more Charmin-dollars will be needed for rents and stocks (like Argentina) remains to be seen.
I think the collapse of the U.S. will be in a word, UNIQUE, perhaps most like Rome or the British EMPIRE. The implications will be, and ARE cosmic.
(I like Krugman's comment around 2007 where he said, in effect, "the entire economy of the United States for the last decade has been the buying and selling of homes to one another at ever increasing prices.")
United States had had plenty of burps and hiccups, their wash crashes decade after the civil war, high income inequality during the end of the 19th century, men like JP Morgan, Rockefeller and Carnegie had more money then the entire nation combine. I think at one Jp Morgan had to bail out the govt. Economy grew thanks to world war 1. Prosperity grew during the 1920s, one of the greatest periods of wealth in America, but it all came down during the 1929 start of the Great Depression. WW2 pulled America out of the depression and this country had a good 30-40 years of economic growth. Even the U.S dollar replaced the British Pound as the global currency. Americas problems started to hit, U.S helped Germany and Japan rebuild their economies, their economies became very strong and competed with U.S hardware makers. 73 Oil crisis did plenty of damage to America auto industry. Arabs oil produced cut oil shipments to the USA do to Americas support for Israel. Also during this time the Northeast deindustrialize and factories either move to anti union South or out of the country as a whole 1980s Reagan was very anti Union, he also signed plenty of tax codes that benefited the rich. 1987 stock market crashes. In the early 90s America was still in recession. Clinton emerges on the scene. Under Clinton U.s inequality grew, Clinton supported the push for Nafta which was a bad idea, then you have the Glassteagel act which he also got rid of. Clinton supported the urban reinvestment act, how can poor people invest when they hardly have any money for rent. Also allowing banks to loan people money who cant not afford loans. I remember when Clinton said that every American should own a home. 21st century hits the scene, doc.com bubble hits, nasdaq looses more than half its stocks. Bush became president, credit problems, foreclosed homes begin to rise, by 2008 Bearsterns, Lehman Bros and others begin to crash. Americans lost every thing from investments to 401ks which are supposed to be insured! Obama becomes president and not much as changed.
The decline of the U.S is very different from Rome or British Empire. Rome had a crisis in the 3rd century, economic crisis, resulting from taxes not coming from regions of its empire, and it was to big manage, social problems, plenty of poor people, mainly slave class, military crisis, Empire begins to break apart, Spain, Britain and France leaves the Empire in the West, while Egypt, Judea Syria and splits from the East, ethnic crisis and racism Greeks and Romans at the top, every other ethinic group at the bottom, then you have a religious crisis which eventually lead to the dominance and embracing of Christianity decades later by the Romans. Christ could not save the Empire, but did make plenty rich though. Roman Empire decided to split into two parts which each part has a junior part with a Junior emperor who has equal powers as the Emperor and again it was a bad move and Rome still slipped into decline. Western half collapses and the Eastern half survives will into the common era however had plenty of hiccups and bumps along the way.
British Empire was a bit different. It was too large to manage, too much people to watch over. Also their was plenty of inequality through out the British Empire which lead its Asian provinces to rebel. You also have ethnic or religious tensions within the British Empire, the British could not keep peace. WW1 weakened the British Empire, 1929 stock crash also weakened the British Empire, WW2 and Hitler nearly brought the British Empire to its knees, Soviet Union could nuked Britain into oblivion, many of Britains colonies embrace Soviet system while others embraced American system. Britain needed its former colony the USA to take of the reigns of Empire which it did to some success often countries that were under British rule are now economically enslaved to the USA.
U.S decline is very similar to that of the Spanish Empire which it too declined due to economic issues. Like the USA dollar, the Spanish dollar was a global currency, again not backed by gold it was backed by silver, and traded globally. Like the USA, Spain spent most of its money on its military to defend its empire and trade routes throughout the world. Spain economy could not control runaway inflation. Spanish middle class kept on buying foreign goods and not buy local goods. Spain had to constantly borrow billions of dollars into todays terms from German banking families which they could not pay back bankrupting many wealthy families. So much silver and gold poured out of the American colonies Spain never put any interest on it. Inflation ensued. Spain decline was slow, even though it remained a super power for centuries to come, it was economically weak and outpaced by Dutch and British banking systems, also income inequality rised in its colonies resulting to indepednece movements. Like the British Empire and Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire was too large to manage. Even Portuguese sugar and Dutch tulips had more value than Spanish dollars. The decline of the USA will be similar to that of the Spanish Empire. The decline of America will be very slow, probably in a century USA will probably fragment apart.
Me personally I don't think their is some truth to Kefir statement, I think their is plenty of truth to his statement. U.S is in a road of long decline. I remember my old man telling me it has to get worse before it gets better and he was right. I wont be surprised if more political meddeling along with slow economic growth will force states to secede. Me personanlly I don't want to live or ever see America breakup.
United States had had plenty of burps and hiccups, their wash crashes decade after the civil war, high income inequality during the end of the 19th century, men like JP Morgan, Rockefeller and Carnegie had more money then the entire nation combine. I think at one Jp Morgan had to bail out the govt. Economy grew thanks to world war 1. Prosperity grew during the 1920s, one of the greatest periods of wealth in America, but it all came down during the 1929 start of the Great Depression. WW2 pulled America out of the depression and this country had a good 30-40 years of economic growth. Even the U.S dollar replaced the British Pound as the global currency. Americas problems started to hit, U.S helped Germany and Japan rebuild their economies, their economies became very strong and competed with U.S hardware makers. 73 Oil crisis did plenty of damage to America auto industry. Arabs oil produced cut oil shipments to the USA do to Americas support for Israel. Also during this time the Northeast deindustrialize and factories either move to anti union South or out of the country as a whole 1980s Reagan was very anti Union, he also signed plenty of tax codes that benefited the rich. 1987 stock market crashes. In the early 90s America was still in recession. Clinton emerges on the scene. Under Clinton U.s inequality grew, Clinton supported the push for Nafta which was a bad idea, then you have the Glassteagel act which he also got rid of. Clinton supported the urban reinvestment act, how can poor people invest when they hardly have any money for rent. Also allowing banks to loan people money who cant not afford loans. I remember when Clinton said that every American should own a home. 21st century hits the scene, doc.com bubble hits, nasdaq looses more than half its stocks. Bush became president, credit problems, foreclosed homes begin to rise, by 2008 Bearsterns, Lehman Bros and others begin to crash. Americans lost every thing from investments to 401ks which are supposed to be insured! Obama becomes president and not much as changed.
The decline of the U.S is very different from Rome or British Empire. Rome had a crisis in the 3rd century, economic crisis, resulting from taxes not coming from regions of its empire, and it was to big manage, social problems, plenty of poor people, mainly slave class, military crisis, Empire begins to break apart, Spain, Britain and France leaves the Empire in the West, while Egypt, Judea Syria and splits from the East, ethnic crisis and racism Greeks and Romans at the top, every other ethinic group at the bottom, then you have a religious crisis which eventually lead to the dominance and embracing of Christianity decades later by the Romans. Christ could not save the Empire, but did make plenty rich though. Roman Empire decided to split into two parts which each part has a junior part with a Junior emperor who has equal powers as the Emperor and again it was a bad move and Rome still slipped into decline. Western half collapses and the Eastern half survives will into the common era however had plenty of hiccups and bumps along the way.
British Empire was a bit different. It was too large to manage, too much people to watch over. Also their was plenty of inequality through out the British Empire which lead its Asian provinces to rebel. You also have ethnic or religious tensions within the British Empire, the British could not keep peace. WW1 weakened the British Empire, 1929 stock crash also weakened the British Empire, WW2 and Hitler nearly brought the British Empire to its knees, Soviet Union could nuked Britain into oblivion, many of Britains colonies embrace Soviet system while others embraced American system. Britain needed its former colony the USA to take of the reigns of Empire which it did to some success often countries that were under British rule are now economically enslaved to the USA.
U.S decline is very similar to that of the Spanish Empire which it too declined due to economic issues. Like the USA dollar, the Spanish dollar was a global currency, again not backed by gold it was backed by silver, and traded globally. Like the USA, Spain spent most of its money on its military to defend its empire and trade routes throughout the world. Spain economy could not control runaway inflation. Spanish middle class kept on buying foreign goods and not buy local goods. Spain had to constantly borrow billions of dollars into todays terms from German banking families which they could not pay back bankrupting many wealthy families. So much silver and gold poured out of the American colonies Spain never put any interest on it. Inflation ensued. Spain decline was slow, even though it remained a super power for centuries to come, it was economically weak and outpaced by Dutch and British banking systems, also income inequality rised in its colonies resulting to indepednece movements. Like the British Empire and Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire was too large to manage. Even Portuguese sugar and Dutch tulips had more value than Spanish dollars. The decline of the USA will be similar to that of the Spanish Empire. The decline of America will be very slow, probably in a century USA will probably fragment apart.
I think it would be great to have some states secede....to believe that we are all Americans is untrue...some are "real" Americans and some will never be. I say let those who want to secede go bye bye....and let them have all the guns, jesus hates **** bumper stickers, no abortions, and two-tier citizenry they like. In fact..they can solely teach evolution, that the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is only 5000 years old!
Only then can the rest of us move forward as a society and actually get things done. As it stands right now having this country forced to remain as one is causing it to decline and nothing is getting done.
I think it would be great to have some states secede....to believe that we are all Americans is untrue...some are "real" Americans and some will never be. I say let those who want to secede go bye bye....and let them have all the guns, jesus hates **** bumper stickers, no abortions, and two-tier citizenry they like. In fact..they can solely teach evolution, that the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is only 5000 years old!
Only then can the rest of us move forward as a society and actually get things done. As it stands right now having this country forced to remain as one is causing it to decline and nothing is getting done.
This reeks of snobbery and elitism. But I will say there are states like NY that are Blue as they come. Some states are as red as they come. I wonder if there really was 2 countries? Would that eliminate the bickering and stalemates in congress? Hey, California tax the hell outta of everyone. Make minimum wage 20 bucks an hour. Give all illegals food stamps and welfare. Then you can have one of those red states use coal like West Virginia.
No it reeks of annoyance and frustration that there is a small portion of this country that is essentially hijacking us all and holding the entire country hostage because they want to sink it and remake it in their image. If that were removed, the rest of us, which would be the vast majority of the population, can move forward. Let the few states that want out go free...why should they be forced to stay? They can move forward in whatever way they see fit..and we can do the same....so what exactly is the problem? Why is that elitist and snobbery? That is for their benefit (according to them), and ours (according to me).
This reeks of snobbery and elitism. But I will say there are states like NY that are Blue as they come. Some states are as red as they come. I wonder if there really was 2 countries? Would that eliminate the bickering and stalemates in congress? Hey, California tax the hell outta of everyone. Make minimum wage 20 bucks an hour. Give all illegals food stamps and welfare. Then you can have one of those red states use coal like West Virginia.
If the US were to break up, i think it would the different regions could become different countries. There's the Southwest, the Northwest, the Interior West, the Deep South, the Midwest, Florida, and the Northeast.
Unless something radical changes with our economy, and that is entirely possible, we will be just limping along.
Actually this was the forecast of our in house economist. He did not foresee a US decline but he thinks that the US will limp along in the decades to come. The root cause is an aging society and a shrinking pool of younger workers left to provide for the nation's prosperity. He has no solutions in mind, only that he expects it to happen.
No it reeks of annoyance and frustration that there is a small portion of this country that is essentially hijacking us all and holding the entire country hostage because they want to sink it and remake it in their image. If that were removed, the rest of us, which would be the vast majority of the population, can move forward. Let the few states that want out go free...why should they be forced to stay? They can move forward in whatever way they see fit..and we can do the same....so what exactly is the problem? Why is that elitist and snobbery? That is for their benefit (according to them), and ours (according to me).
I have to concur with you SOBRO on this. The Liberal Elite, from Manhatten to Hollywood truly desires to transform American into their image--frightening. The Liberal Elite, coupled with liberal mainstream media, supported by the majority of academics who are leftist centric, etc. have the self-loathing gene and will stop at nothing to remake America into something that our founding fathers would not recognize.
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. Inflation ensued. Spain decline was slow, even though it remained a super power for centuries to come, it was economically weak and outpaced by Dutch and British banking systems, also income inequality rised in its colonies resulting to indepednece movements. Like the British Empire and Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire was too large to manage. Even Portuguese sugar and Dutch tulips had more value than Spanish dollars. The decline of the USA will be similar to that of the Spanish Empire. The decline of America will be very slow, probably in a century USA will probably fragment apart.
