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Just curious. When class spaces are filled at California State colleges, students who really need to take that course will try to "crash a course." It works like this: you go to the first class and then beg the professor to let you in. It usually works. Is there something similar at CUNY campuses?
We used to call it "over tally" back in my CUNY days, but that was years ago. Now with computerized registration and so forth many professors simply won't budge if their class is full 'on paper. It did then and still does often require a department chair to sign off on the over tally something not all would support. It helped if one was a nursing or whatever major and "needed" to be in that class, that or were near graduation and the class was one of the final left in order to get out.
Some professors then and one assumes now would allow a certain number of students to sit in classes the first few weeks to see if people dropped out/didn't show. Then those now empty slots could be recycled.
OTOH you have private colleges like NYU that run *HUGE* old school lecture classes. We're talking about a lecture hall classroom filled with one hundred or more students. Much of their nursing program is structured that way and it can be a "sink or swim" type of education. That is if you are the sort of person who needs individual attention it probably won't work out for you.
I agree that the classes are very difficult at Hunter---I am not sure how they compare to City---and getting a seat in many of the classes at Hunter=AWFUL. You have a school that could easily open another section of physics that would still be completely filled to the brim and they don't, so you will find a lot of students who get permits to take the classes elsewhere, which was something I had to do for organic chemistry. However, that could work in your favor, in that you may be able to take the class elsewhere and it might be easier.
You do NOT have to be a biology major. If you want to make your life easier, do the pre-med coursework and major in something else---you could even minor in biology, if you'd like. There was a year where the valedictorian at Hunter (who went to medical school on a full-ride, I believe) majored in psychology and did all of her pre-med coursework. Smart move.
Hunter College has always been the "Harvard" of CUNY system. Depending upon ones major it is that college or Baruch and maybe City College worth considering. However Hunter has vastly outgrown their UES campus and really, really needs something new, but that isn't going to happen. So they have to squeeze ever increasing enrollment into the spaces they have. IIRC the nursing school recently got a new building over by Bellevue or at least on the far East Side.
It isn't helping matters that Hunter along with some other CUNY four year colleges are seen as a bargain educational wise. Many students who would have turned up their noses at going to a CUNY school in past (and their parents) are worried about taking on large amounts of student loan debt. For some majors such as nursing CUNY schools provide excellent value for money. No one really cares if you got your nursing degree from City University or NYU.
I agree - that's why I made the comment about the (now) great doctor who was a lit major.
And accepted into a top medical school with that degree.
Many medical schools now in the name of diversity of both their students and future physician demographics of the USA are looking out of the box when it comes to admissions. In short they are seeking more than those with science undergraduate degrees. Yes, you need to have certain "pre-med" courses and ace the MCAT, but you may not need to have a BofS in Chem.
I'm a civil engineering major at CCNY, but I do know a lot of premed students. Over here, Bio 101 is known to be a tough class, though I've heard it eases up a little after that (though on the other hand, I know quite a few students who made it through Bio 101, but ended up giving up down the line and just going for a biology minor). I don't think it's quite as hard as Hunter's program, though.
It's called overtallying. Usually, you ask the head of the department if they could squeeze you in, and they may or may not allow you to.
You can take it at another CUNY school (it's called ePermit). I think you can take up to 30 credits at another CUNY school, though I'm not 100% sure. And see what I said above about the overtallying.
How quickly do core science classes fill up at City College?
I've heard a lot of bad things about Hunter and Baruch last few years. For a lot of people I don't think it's worth the extra hassle.
I had a friend who went to Baruch and some of the stuff he told me was insane. The worst thing about Hunter, IMO, was how overcrowded it was. I remember when I was trying to take A&P, I would literally be checking the website (back when it was esims) everyday, multiple times per day, hoping someone would drop. And this was a HUGE lecture class.
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Originally Posted by Wells5
Just curious. When class spaces are filled at California State colleges, students who really need to take that course will try to "crash a course." It works like this: you go to the first class and then beg the professor to let you in. It usually works. Is there something similar at CUNY campuses?
Yes. However, this only applies to lectures; the amount of students that can be in a laboratory is regulated. Since all of the pre-med science coursework requires a lab component, you either get stuck taking it another semester or praying for a seat to open up.
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Originally Posted by brklynnyk
Can you always get a permit to take a class elsewhere? Where else would you take the class? I understand that Hunter is better for the sciences even though those core science classes fill up quickly, but I don't know whether this is the case at City College. And Wells5, I don't think that could work at CUNY, we register for all our classes online and you can't register if a class is full unless someone drops that class.
You CAN overtally but it won't help for labs. You can pretty much take a course on epermit at anywhere within the CUNY system, even community colleges. I know of some CCs where it's pretty easy to get a seat on epermit because they usually have spots open. They are usually the schools that are out of the way/not so easy to get to.
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Even with say one hundred or so opening slots each semester do you have any idea how many "pre-nursing" students are at Hunter? More, many, many more than are accepted each semester. Hence the crunch for getting into require pre-nursing/core required science classes. Two friends went to Hunter for pre-nursing several years ago and their organic chem classes had nursing, "pre-med", nutrition and so forth health science majors.
Not only does this move free up the real meat and bones OC classes for those doing pre-med, pharmacy and chemistry majors but it helps with a debate that has been brewing in nursing education circles for ages; how much chemistry does a professional nurse really need to know to function.
Many schools in New York and elsewhere especially four year/BSN programs require students to take organic chemistry, but many see that as over kill. Well at least OC taught to the standard level say for chemistry majors, pre-med, etc... Other places take the route Hunter has now gone; create an OC "lite" that will give nursing and health science/related majors the essentials of organic chemistry without (much) of the heartache.
Full frontal organic chemistry is one of the top classes that cause nursing students to get bounced out, right up there with nursing math/pharmacology. Worse many schools (including Hunter-Bellevue IIRC) only accept "B" grades and above. In fact some NYC hospitals at least state their "preferred" new hires that are new graduates will have a "B" or above grades in all sciences and nursing courses.
I say this as a person who had all of their nursing pre-reqs done (and was in a nursing program, but decided to drop from it, because I moved back to NYC) and with a sister who just finished her nursing degree---essentials of organic chemistry is NOTHING LIKE regular organic chemistry---period, end of story. Most nursing students do not take "real" organic chemistry unless they are planning to pursue something afterwards, like medical school. Most of them do not take any intense, science-based coursework except for anatomy and physiology. The essentials classes (they have them for all non-science majors) are a joke and people are aware---that's why they have to make special classes for non-science majors---because otherwise they'd be too difficult. Science majors don't take "lite" classes in any other field.
Nursing students, for the most part, DO NOT take the same pre-reqs as pre-meds. They do not take a year of real chemistry or organic chemistry. They do not take a year of physics. They do take A&P (which kills a lot of nursing students at Hunter) and that is probably the most intense class. Some schools require a year of biology, some don't. Nursing students usually even have their own separate microbiology class. They might have to take the same gen eds (like English, Math/Stats, etc.) but that's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Hunter College has always been the "Harvard" of CUNY system. Depending upon ones major it is that college or Baruch and maybe City College worth considering. However Hunter has vastly outgrown their UES campus and really, really needs something new, but that isn't going to happen. So they have to squeeze ever increasing enrollment into the spaces they have. IIRC the nursing school recently got a new building over by Bellevue or at least on the far East Side.
It isn't helping matters that Hunter along with some other CUNY four year colleges are seen as a bargain educational wise. Many students who would have turned up their noses at going to a CUNY school in past (and their parents) are worried about taking on large amounts of student loan debt. For some majors such as nursing CUNY schools provide excellent value for money. No one really cares if you got your nursing degree from City University or NYU.
When I was at Hunter, the nursing program was so competitive that people who didn't get in transferred into schools like NYU. Because everyone with half of a brain knows at the end of the day, I get paid the same as you as long as we're at the same hospital so where my degree is from doesn't matter. I would say Hunter's program is probably the most competitive around and has the brightest students enrolled.
I had a friend who went to Baruch and some of the stuff he told me was insane. The worst thing about Hunter, IMO, was how overcrowded it was. I remember when I was trying to take A&P, I would literally be checking the website (back when it was esims) everyday, multiple times per day, hoping someone would drop. And this was a HUGE lecture class.
The overcrowding was something I was primarily worried about. I'd rather not take classes over the summer when I'm getting financial aid for the fall and spring. But now that I know about e-permits, I suppose it could be manageable.
Many medical schools now in the name of diversity of both their students and future physician demographics of the USA are looking out of the box when it comes to admissions. In short they are seeking more than those with science undergraduate degrees. Yes, you need to have certain "pre-med" courses and ace the MCAT, but you may not need to have a BofS in Chem.
It is the training vs. actual (developed) intelligence thing.
Guess which will be the "affordable" doctors, and guess which will be the better ones.
I had a friend who went to Baruch and some of the stuff he told me was insane. The worst thing about Hunter, IMO, was how overcrowded it was. I remember when I was trying to take A&P, I would literally be checking the website (back when it was esims) everyday, multiple times per day, hoping someone would drop. And this was a HUGE lecture class.
Yes. However, this only applies to lectures; the amount of students that can be in a laboratory is regulated. Since all of the pre-med science coursework requires a lab component, you either get stuck taking it another semester or praying for a seat to open up.
You CAN overtally but it won't help for labs. You can pretty much take a course on epermit at anywhere within the CUNY system, even community colleges. I know of some CCs where it's pretty easy to get a seat on epermit because they usually have spots open. They are usually the schools that are out of the way/not so easy to get to.
I say this as a person who had all of their nursing pre-reqs done (and was in a nursing program, but decided to drop from it, because I moved back to NYC) and with a sister who just finished her nursing degree---essentials of organic chemistry is NOTHING LIKE regular organic chemistry---period, end of story. Most nursing students do not take "real" organic chemistry unless they are planning to pursue something afterwards, like medical school. Most of them do not take any intense, science-based coursework except for anatomy and physiology. The essentials classes (they have them for all non-science majors) are a joke and people are aware---that's why they have to make special classes for non-science majors---because otherwise they'd be too difficult. Science majors don't take "lite" classes in any other field.
Nursing students, for the most part, DO NOT take the same pre-reqs as pre-meds. They do not take a year of real chemistry or organic chemistry. They do not take a year of physics. They do take A&P (which kills a lot of nursing students at Hunter) and that is probably the most intense class. Some schools require a year of biology, some don't. Nursing students usually even have their own separate microbiology class. They might have to take the same gen eds (like English, Math/Stats, etc.) but that's it.
When I was at Hunter, the nursing program was so competitive that people who didn't get in transferred into schools like NYU. Because everyone with half of a brain knows at the end of the day, I get paid the same as you as long as we're at the same hospital so where my degree is from doesn't matter. I would say Hunter's program is probably the most competitive around and has the brightest students enrolled.
Hunter-Bellevue had to make changes because people were getting pissed off. They just either didn't predict or could cope with the sudden demand created by hundreds of persons wanting into a CUNY BSN nursing program (there are only a few).
HB long required organic chemistry as do many other schools. Again as stated there is a huge debate as to how much chemistry and what depth nurses need to know. Some places long went the "essentials" route and that was that. I know for a fact OC was the cause of many pre-nursing Hunter students getting bounced. A&P can also be the "make or break" science classes for nursing students.
A bulk of if not all science courses most nursing students take are called ".... for weenies" by serious science majors. A&P, microbiology, organic chemistry etc... all can and are usually taught to a different level for nursing students than say pre-med or even just chemistry or other science majors.
Problem with chemistry is many NYC high school students aren't prepared to even cope with college level general much less organic. Same thing with math including algebra.
Hunter-Bellevue had a problem in that each semester for years now the numbers of students applying vastly out-numbered open slots. You had no small number of people who completed pre-nursing with 3.5 to 4.0 GPAs not getting in on their first or even second application. Hell to the yeah some left to go to NYU or elsewhere. Why spend one or two years cooling your jets at Hunter for some vague promise you "might" get into the nursing program...
Largest problem is that more and more NYC hospitals are demanding new graduate nursing have a four year degree/BSN. Sadly CUNY only has two undergraduate BSN programs (Lehman and Hunter), the rest are at community colleges and confer an ADN degree
Aren't the CUNY medical school programs (Sophie Davis and the future CUNY School of Medicine) based at City College?
Yes.
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They are usually the schools that are out of the way/not so easy to get to.
