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with a few stops in between grand central and atlantic terminal.
Or maybe just 1 stop in between which is Fulton. So then the stops would be 125 (MNR) -> GC -> Fulton -> AT. I do see an issue with letting the LIRR and NJT feed into GC in that GC is already bursting with commuters so that station will need to be expanded or NJT can be added much later when capacity is figured out. NJ commuters can presently reach downtown by getting off at Hoboken and taking either ferry or PATH anyway.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 01-24-2016 at 09:20 AM..
Or maybe just 1 stop in between which is Fulton. So then the stops would be 125 (MNR) -> GC -> Fulton -> AT. I do see an issue with letting the LIRR and NJT feed into GC in that GC is already bursting with commuters so that station will need to be expanded or NJT can be added much later when capacity is figured out. NJ commuters can presently reach downtown by getting off at Hoboken and taking either ferry or PATH anyway.
I think one or two more stations between GC and Fulton would be appropriate if they're already going to build the tunneling. The idea is to leverage existing commuter rail lines combined into large trunks in the city as a secondary set of rapid transit like Paris's RER systems or various Germanic cities' U-Bahn systems.
Grand Central would not be at capacity if these trains were through-running--the problem Grand Central and many terminal stations face is that their capacity is limited by the trains that have to get into a stub end track and then cross-over into the main track to go back out again. If the trains were to simply stop for a bit to disembark and embark passengers, then the through-put on any set of rails is going to be vastly higher than anything that is a stub end. It's why projects like Boston's North-South rail link could mean far more trains run through these stations than would have been otherwise possible with terminal stations simply expanding for more stub-ends.
If the commuter rail agencies went through the (significant) one time cost of making sure they're all compatible with each other, then that means they can get a lot greater economies of scale and flexibility with future order of trains--what that also means is that current Metro-North trains can then route down from GC and LIRR can route up from Atlantic (through Fulton) and they can run as a single line with much higher throughput that previously possible.
If NJT gets combined, then it's possible to construct a station or two with a set of rails as it goes under 33rd street through Manhattan and have that kind of through-running out to Queens (so combined NJT and LIRR lines) as well as the Metro-North Station. Combine this with the Penn Station access project for Metro-North and you really have a stew going.
Even more pie-in-the-sky would be so that the tracks currently crossing 33rd street for LIRR and NJT also allow turns north into GC or south to Atlantic via Fulton.
Reminder:
Most NYC subway system was dug around 1900 in roughly 3 years with shovels and bare hands. That included digging tunnels under the river more than once, since water was leaking in.
In 2016, almost 120 years later, a line couple of miles long, made with computerized boring machines takes about 20 years...
Reminder:
Most NYC subway system was dug around 1900 in roughly 3 years with shovels and bare hands. That included digging tunnels under the river more than once, since water was leaking in.
In 2016, almost 120 years later, a line couple of miles long, made with computerized boring machines takes about 20 years...
Yes. The original system was built when there were far less utilities underground, and when they didn't have to worry about lawsuits when people died on the job or when construction accidentally damaged buildings. Today death on the job would get the MTA and the contractors sued. So would damage to buildings. Plus there must be a lengthy environmental review before the utility relocation starts. Once the utilities are out of the way, only THEN can subway construction start.
Today no one is going to tolerate the complete closure of streets like they did in 1900.
A problem too with transit fans is everyone has grand ideas, but how is it going to be paid for? Unless the federal government substantially steps in we will not see much expansion.
Yes. The original system was built when there were far less utilities underground, and when they didn't have to worry about lawsuits when people died on the job or when construction accidentally damaged buildings. Today death on the job would get the MTA and the contractors sued. So would damage to buildings. Plus there must be a lengthy environmental review before the utility relocation starts. Once the utilities are out of the way, only THEN can subway construction start.
Today no one is going to tolerate the complete closure of streets like they did in 1900.
A problem too with transit fans is everyone has grand ideas, but how is it going to be paid for? Unless the federal government substantially steps in we will not see much expansion.
Today most work is automated and performed by machines, with relatively few people working. In the past thousands of men labored underground. It was great for employment.
Alas, if the current trend continues, we won't be able to move a single stone in the city. NYC and America will be totally paralyzed.
Yes. The original system was built when there were far less utilities underground, and when they didn't have to worry about lawsuits when people died on the job or when construction accidentally damaged buildings. Today death on the job would get the MTA and the contractors sued. So would damage to buildings. Plus there must be a lengthy environmental review before the utility relocation starts. Once the utilities are out of the way, only THEN can subway construction start.
Today no one is going to tolerate the complete closure of streets like they did in 1900.
A problem too with transit fans is everyone has grand ideas, but how is it going to be paid for? Unless the federal government substantially steps in we will not see much expansion.
There you go again.....
People/property owners didn't wholesale "tolerate" cut and cover of the early subway system. There were complaints, lawsuits and everything else that happens today in NYC.
As for what is underground, by the early part of last century water and sewer mains, along with much if not all electrical lines, steam pipes etc.... were all underground in Manhattan. Only things added in the coming decades were (besides the train tunnels themselves) cable and various other communications wiring. In fact there is probably much more underground in some locations that sits dormant such as pneumatic air tubes once used to move mail/letters.
Cut and cover is largely not needed anymore due to advances in tunneling equipment I shouldn't wonder. Being that as it may parts of Second Avenue have been opened up like sardine cans for months now with things finally beginning to see and end.
What would be best is to make metro-north, lirr, and njt rail compatible and run a commuter rail line further south all the way to downtown and then into atlantic terminal in brooklyn with a few stops in between grand central and atlantic terminal.
I don't see that happening, as long as you have the PATH system serving Lower Manhattan into Newark, which has Amtrak and NJT service, and Hoboken which is just NJT. A commuter line from Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal to Lower Manhattan and Atlantic Terminal will never happen!!! There's too much cooperation between the MTA, PANYNJ, and NJT and one agency needs another to work.
Without the PATH, you wouldn't have quick service into NJ and you might not even have the HBLR and Newark light rail systems operating as they are currently. Take away NJT, and you'll have a harder time transporting commuter to destinations in NJ. And take away the MTA, and you're going to have bumper-to-bumper gridlock citywide in NYC. It sounds like a good idea, but think of the cost to make such a commuter line. NYC was this close to connecting Penn Station and Grand Central, but the city and the state used the stimulus funds for something else. It's a pie-in-the-sky proposal and one that will cost the city, the state, and the feds trillions of dollars to allocate!!!
People/property owners didn't wholesale "tolerate" cut and cover of the early subway system. There were complaints, lawsuits and everything else that happens today in NYC.
As for what is underground, by the early part of last century water and sewer mains, along with much if not all electrical lines, steam pipes etc.... were all underground in Manhattan. Only things added in the coming decades were (besides the train tunnels themselves) cable and various other communications wiring. In fact there is probably much more underground in some locations that sits dormant such as pneumatic air tubes once used to move mail/letters.
Cut and cover is largely not needed anymore due to advances in tunneling equipment I shouldn't wonder. Being that as it may parts of Second Avenue have been opened up like sardine cans for months now with things finally beginning to see and end.
All utilities would be more DENSE underground as opposed to the early 20th century. And of course you did not have extensive environmental reviews, nor did you have the litigation issues such as what would happen if during construction buildings were damaged, services were cut off, or people were killed or injured.
It's an extremely different environment today. Unlike in the early 20th century where they were able to tackle building 4 track lines, today they can barely extend a two track line two miles. And even the Second Avenue Subway had to deal with lawsuits (the 86nd Street entrance was delayed by litigation), plus there was some damage to a few buildings along the way.
Today most work is automated and performed by machines, with relatively few people working. In the past thousands of men labored underground. It was great for employment.
Alas, if the current trend continues, we won't be able to move a single stone in the city. NYC and America will be totally paralyzed.
The utility relocation uses a lot of workers. After the tunnel boring machine drills the tunnels, the construction of the underground caverns is done by explosives that are set off by PEOPLE. Then the interior installation of the systems needed to run the trains is also done by PEOPLE, using machines. Worker safety is extremely important, unlike the early 20th century. Labor standards (including safety) made prices go up considerably.
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