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Rockaways does not have a significant population, that is why historical there have been less options for them.
If an isolated island had only three people on it and the only way off the island was by ferry, would it make sense to have an Airport, subway and bus just to serve just 3 people? According the both of your logic, yes because they are underserved and only have one method of travel.
Benefiting the most amount of people is what should be considered. In comparing a Rockaway or Coney Island ferry, you two have still not proven that a Rockaway Ferry would be more feasible than a coney island ferry.
Coney Island is underserved, feel free to come on down and take a glance.
Lets switch the argument, I have a feeling there is possibly subtle jealousy of Coney Island becoming the up and coming neighborhood of this city. Let's see your answers to the below. I do not wish for the below scenario to happen, but let's play the "what if" game.
The current Rockaway ferry currently zips by Coney Island. Would it not make sense to have it stop in Coney Island since it already passes by?
Spare us both with your rhetoric. I'm a born and raised New Yorker. Have spent plenty of time down there as a kid with my family going to the amusement parks. Also knew of kids that lived in Sea Gate, so I'm quite familiar with the area. You are not telling me anything new nor am I buying your BS. I was just down there a few weeks ago and used the X28 to see me myself and I the only person riding the thing until we reached further north. The area is seeing some development, but that doesn't mean that a ferry is automatically needed.
The Rockaways has a decent enough population *NOW* that a ferry makes sense. If the Rockaways had more train lines OR express bus service seven days a week like Coney Island does, I would say it doesn't need a ferry, but that isn't the case. You are not selling me on this *urgent* need for ferry service. You also must think I'm a fool to honestly believe that you don't get a seat on the subway when it's the first stop at the terminal. Are you really trying to tell me that the trains are *THAT* crowded when you have FOUR subway lines terminating there? In all of the years that I've taken the subway down there I've seen the trains crowded but not *that* crowded. More *BS*.
gtfo of coney island and you'd have faster service to manhattan..plain and simple. lol..MR.I you kept on insisting that CI is underserved..no is not. 4 lines..2 express lines included..that is no way underserved, why do you think they made it the final stop? main station. - 7 to flushing is a great example of undeserved. quit complaining about how long it takes to get to manhattan..i mean, you are going from one end of a boarder to another..then anyone else in BK can claim the same..
gtfo of coney island and you'd have faster service to manhattan..plain and simple. lol..MR.I you kept on insisting that CI is underserved..no is not. 4 lines..2 express lines included..that is no way underserved, why do you think they made it the final stop? main station. - 7 to flushing is a great example of undeserved. quit complaining about how long it takes to get to manhattan..i mean, you are going from one end of a boarder to another..then anyone else in BK can claim the same..
He also has the X28 express bus (direct to Downtown) AND the X38 express bus (direct to Midtown). He likes to leave that out though.
Ah I see now. A bit of resentment directed for and coming neighborhood.
None of your have provided numbers for your claims. Back it with facts, like have.
Piere,
Coney Island has double the population of Rockaway beach. The Coney Island Area has 4x's the population of Rockaway Peninsula, do we not have a decent population to support a ferry?
You are also forgetting a 29 minute commute would inspire many drivers who own personal vehicles to give up the car to opt for cheaper and faster service.
A Coney Island Ferry would make the most since compared to any other route. Period.
The next reply better have numbers and data. If not, gtfo.
Ah I see now. A bit of resentment directed for and coming neighborhood.
None of your have provided numbers for your claims. Back it with facts, like have.
Piere,
Coney Island has double the population of Rockaway beach. The Coney Island Area has 4x's the population of Rockaway Peninsula, do we not have a decent population to support a ferry?
You are also forgetting a 29 minute commute would inspire many drivers who own personal vehicles to give up the car to opt for cheaper and faster service.
A Coney Island Ferry would make the most since compared to any other route. Period.
The next reply better have numbers and data. If not, gtfo.
You keep ignoring the fact that Coney Island had direct express train service, the Sea Beach Express. Even though train service service is more convenient and reliable than ferry service, it failed to attract ridership. And this was at a time when Coney Island was more popular than it is today. So please explain, with facts, why would a less reliable ferry service succeed when the Sea Beach express failed so spectacularly?
If Coney Island was a transit desert in desperate need of or more transit access, I would whole heartedly agree with bringing ferry service to Coney Island, even despite the massive subsidies ferries require. But it’s not. It has FOUR subway lines and an poorly used express bus. Tell me, what is the purpose of of yet another transportation option that will be poorly used?
Let’s use our resources to bring transit to places that NEED them. Not to a neighborhood with a plethora of transit options already. That would be like trying to build a subway under fifth avenue instead of second where it’s needed.
And Lastly, and least on my part, there is no resentment towards Coney Island. If anything, every time I am there, I think of all the potential it has to become an amazing neighborhood. With such great transit access, it’s a shame that it’s so underdeveloped. I wish the city could eminent domain all the private property along the boardwalk and redevelop it into a true beachside neighborhood. As it is though, there is no need to bring a heavily subsidized ferry to Coney Island.
Ah I see now. A bit of resentment directed for and coming neighborhood.
None of your have provided numbers for your claims. Back it with facts, like have.
Piere,
Coney Island has double the population of Rockaway beach. The Coney Island Area has 4x's the population of Rockaway Peninsula, do we not have a decent population to support a ferry?
You are also forgetting a 29 minute commute would inspire many drivers who own personal vehicles to give up the car to opt for cheaper and faster service.
A Coney Island Ferry would make the most since compared to any other route. Period.
The next reply better have numbers and data. If not, gtfo.
There is no resentment. Am wondering this: where would the slip be located and how many people do you think will actually use the service, when it will be running far less frequently than the subway? You keep focusing on a 29 minute commute, which does not take into account the time that people need to spend to actually reach the ferry. Having used the ferry elsewhere, can tell you that there WILL BE delays. Not as gravy as you're making it sound. The fact that they're are four subway lines cannot be ignored, even if some have to take a bus to reach them because the buses and subways will all run more frequently than the ferry. There is no debating that either.
I hear you. However, repeating your statement does not strengthen your argument. Rockaways has been underservved because the demand is low, look at those utterly low commuter numbers on their lines. Mind you most of those numbers are staying within queens and not onwards to Manhattan. I will be curious to see how many people are on a Rockaway ferry in the dead of winter. If you're looking for waste of money, there it is.
So all those people I see getting off the train at stops like 59th Street, 36th Street, and Atlantic Avenue (i.e. Stops in Brooklyn that wouldn't be able to be accessed by ferry) are just figments of my imagination? If anything, a higher percentage of Rockaway commuters would be heading to Manhattan, compared to those from Coney Island.
As for the X28, the express bus isn't the end-be-all solution. It runs much less frequently than the trains and is subject to traffic delays (also, it has no weekday midday service to Coney Island) so I can see why it isn't utilized heavily. That being said, Coney Island definitely isn't underserved with the 4 subway lines that terminate there.
Can anyone on the forum read? If you do not have the numbers or data your argument is weak. Please cite. Put your money where your mouth is and cite numbers. If you can't, clearly your argument is flawed.
The express train saga is easy to explain and it has virtually nothing to do with ridership, but politics. One politician comes in to office, "I saved so much money by cutting express train service to Coney Island". Next politician comes into office "We need express train service due to the high demand". This has been flip flopping for decades and commuters always have to adjust their method of travel.
As for people in south Brooklyn getting off at other stops, yea. Most commuters stay within their borough and the four lines of subway service from Coney Island will always remain important . Atlantic ave is a special case. Many get off at Atlantic and transfer to another Manhattan bound train. There is no way Rockaway peninsula has more commuting to manhattan than the greater Coney island Area. Feel free and look up the ridership and train stations, for your notion to be possible (which is isnt), for every 1 Rockaway Peninsula commuter there are 4 Coney Island Greater area commuters. Your math simply does not add up.
Pierre, The Coney Island Ferry dock would be located within Coney Island Creek. Most likely at 21st Street and Neptune Avenue. Most residents could simply walk if the location was here. It is much more centrally located than Stilwell Av. Also visitors to Coney Island would just have to walk down 21st Street three blocks and they would reach the Amusement District and Beach. The biggest problem Coney Island has had is visitors would come to Coney Island by train, go directly to the amusement district/beach and turn back around and head for the train. All without interacting with the neighborhood. A ferry at this location would nudge visitors to explore the neighborhood. This would greatly inspire development throughout the neighborhood. Look at Coney Island today, there is so much construction going on, all without a ferry and advertising a short 29 minute commute.
As far as ferry delays I agree with you. Citywide ferry is a new thing. Any new thing is going to have tinkering. Hornblower did not have enough vessels ready and current ridership is exceeding NYCEDC expectations. Delays are due to the 150 capacity vessels (which upgrades are supposed to hold 250) and having to charter other vessels from others. They simply were not prepared. However, I would not pop champagne just yet and celebrate, how will the Rockaway Ferry fair in the dead of winter? Also out of curiosity I took a A.M weekday ferry from pier 11 to Rockaway, I virtually had to boat to myself. As far as actual numbers of strictly commuters to manhattan from C.I to lower Manhattan and vice versa I have the following. (From 2012 NYCEDC Coney Island feasibility study) There are 5,070 daily commuters. A daily commuter makes two trips, to and from. Total trips per day 10,140. Just with these commuters if just a quarter (25%) opted for ferry service (which is plausible, faster and same price as a subway) we would get 5 work day total of 12,675 per week. The NYCEDC was celebrating when the Rockaway route broke 10,000 passengers the first week. Our commuters would easily exceed that number. I have not included our significant visitor numbers, weekend travel numbers nor commuters from nearby neighborhoods such as Bath Breach, Gravesend and Brighton Beach. We are certainly feasible.
Coney Island has double the population of Rockaway Beach currently. We alone could support it. Coney Island's resident population is about to double within a few years. If anyone wants a list of residential project that are happening, like as we speak they are hammering, feel free to let me know and I will post.
Can anyone on the forum read? If you do not have the numbers or data your argument is weak. Please cite. Put your money where your mouth is and cite numbers. If you can't, clearly your argument is flawed.
The express train saga is easy to explain and it has virtually nothing to do with ridership, but politics. One politician comes in to office, "I saved so much money by cutting express train service to Coney Island". Next politician comes into office "We need express train service due to the high demand". This has been flip flopping for decades and commuters always have to adjust their method of travel.
As for people in south Brooklyn getting off at other stops, yea. Most commuters stay within their borough and the four lines of subway service from Coney Island will always remain important . Atlantic ave is a special case. Many get off at Atlantic and transfer to another Manhattan bound train. There is no way Rockaway peninsula has more commuting to manhattan than the greater Coney island Area. Feel free and look up the ridership and train stations, for your notion to be possible (which is isnt), for every 1 Rockaway Peninsula commuter there are 4 Coney Island Greater area commuters. Your math simply does not add up.
Pierre, The Coney Island Ferry dock would be located within Coney Island Creek. Most likely at 21st Street and Neptune Avenue. Most residents could simply walk if the location was here. It is much more centrally located than Stilwell Av. Also visitors to Coney Island would just have to walk down 21st Street three blocks and they would reach the Amusement District and Beach. The biggest problem Coney Island has had is visitors would come to Coney Island by train, go directly to the amusement district/beach and turn back around and head for the train. All without interacting with the neighborhood. A ferry at this location would nudge visitors to explore the neighborhood. This would greatly inspire development throughout the neighborhood. Look at Coney Island today, there is so much construction going on, all without a ferry and advertising a short 29 minute commute.
*LOL* Aside from poverty and run down buildings, am wondering what exactly is there to *explore*? Past the amusement area and the ballpark, the place looks like a hellhole. PJs along Surf Avenue that are as dangerous as ever, and the deeper you go, the worse it looks. Even Sea Gate looks run down. The only thing that looks promising is the building under construction across from the PJs or whatever. Lord knows the area *needs* all the development it can get.
No ferries to Coney island. If there are plans for this to happen then I will gladly sign a pitition to block it.
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Having used the ferry elsewhere, can tell you that there WILL BE delays. Not as gravy as you're making it sound. The fact that they're are four subway lines cannot be ignored, even if some have to take a bus to reach them because the buses and subways will all run more frequently than the ferry. There is no debating that either.
