Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Fred, how much do you think a project like that will cost? And how many years will it take?
I'm guessing somewhere in the billions, and it will take about a decade.
Well, let's see...the proposal to construct a cross-Queens express (running along the Long Island Expressway's right-of-way) was budgeted at $830 million. It was never built in its entirety, obviously, although we did get a portion of it with the present 63rd Street subway.
Considering that a line running all the way beneath the harbor is no easy engineering feat--and that the entire length of the Staten Island Railroad would have to be reconfigured to accommodate the narrower IRT cars, I myself would be rather scared to put a price tag on it. But I'm sure that something over $1 billion would be likely. And time-wise, if it was completed in less than a decade, I think everyone would have to declare victory.
This is why I don't think it'll ever happen, unless residents of Staten Island start screaming and don't let up. If you can move something from the community level to the point where politicians start worrying about being elected to office, there's always a chance!
I don't see why residents of Staten Island would be opposed to it. If the time it takes me to commute to Manhattan suddenly went down from 1 hour to 30 minutes, I believe the value of my property would probably appreciate by at least 20%, if not more. I'd definitely be for it!
The best option, by far, is extending the 1 line. We already have the equipment to build subway tunnels. We'd just have to put it to use for the harbor tunnel for a while. You could charge people $5 (instead of $2) to take the subway in either direction (that's what the express buses cost). There's no need to retrofit the SIR. You could just have people transfer trains at St. George's terminal, from the 1 to the SIR.
There're currently 70k trips on the ferry each day. If only 20k of those started using the subway, that's already an extra $100k in revenue per day. That's not too bad for a tunnel!
Do you believe that New York City should fund subway expansion into Staten Island?
In the first place, MTA is a state agency, not a city agency. Funding would have to originate in Albany.
Next up: about a decade and a half ago, an official proposal for expansion of the subway to Staten Island was vetoed by residents of that borough. Attitudes may have changed in the years since--but at the same time, the cost of constructing such a line has gone through the roof. You'll never hear me say that a line to Staten Island wouldn't be a good thing...but I also wouldn't counsel anyone to hold their breath.
Historical footnote: the original proposal for a subway line to Staten Island dated to the early 1920s. When the BMT company was building the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn, the original terminal was at 86 Street. The line was extended to 95 Street in anticipation of the Staten Island construction.
As it happened, Mayor John Hylan was a dedicated opponent of mass transit expansion. This was a result of an accident that had happened while he worked as a tower operator. He held a huge grudge against the transit company, and stood in their way at every opportunity.
I don't see why residents of Staten Island would be opposed to it. If the time it takes me to commute to Manhattan suddenly went down from 1 hour to 30 minutes, I believe the value of my property would probably appreciate by at least 20%, if not more. I'd definitely be for it!
The best option, by far, is extending the 1 line. We already have the equipment to build subway tunnels. We'd just have to put it to use for the harbor tunnel for a while. You could charge people $5 (instead of $2) to take the subway in either direction (that's what the express buses cost). There's no need to retrofit the SIR. You could just have people transfer trains at St. George's terminal, from the 1 to the SIR.
There're currently 70k trips on the ferry each day. If only 20k of those started using the subway, that's already an extra $100k in revenue per day. That's not too bad for a tunnel!
As much as I would like to see the subway extended to SI, it depends on where you put it. If you are just going to have a tunnel from the Ferry area to Whitehall, it's not going to save much time. The SIRT only runs through part of the Island. For me, I take a bus to the Ferry. At that point, it may not be faster to take a train into Manhattan it there are delays. The Ferry might still be a better option. The cost may not be justified.
At this point, I think the opportunity for a SI subway is long gone. The Island has gotten very crowded and too much would have to be disturbed to have the type of system we really need.
I have a question for anyone here that can answer it. I'm subway motorman and I also live in Bay Ridge. It is my understanding that when the R line was extended from 86th to 95th street , that the plan was to construct a tunnel into Staten Island. There was no Verrazano Bridge then. In fact , behind the bumping blocks at 95th there are artificial walls and there are more tunnel behind those walls , extending farther down 4th avenue , though I don't know how far.
I am very familiar with the Verrazono bridge , drive over it often , and grew up playing in it's shadows. I am also familiar with how subways come up out of portals and onto bridges due to my job. My question becomes , for anyone who can answer it , most likely Fred , why , if there was going to be an extension of the R (or whatever train designation was chosen) to Staten Island (which I know there is not a snowballs chance in hell of actually happening , but just playing what-if) , why and how would it make sense to make the connection over the bridge , instead of via a newly constructed tunnel?
I do understand the bridge is already there , but to extend the line from 95th and 4th avenue , the Verrazano actually comes off the 'street' (actually below street level) around 92nd-93rd streets and Fort Hamilton Parkway (not 4th avenue) and then rises up above the streets. A snake shaped tunnel would have to be built from 95th street , looping it down toward Fort Hamilton Parkway , then running in reverse , in the direction of 86th street again , then snaking it back around to run up onto the bridge. I also never saw anything on the bridge itself that would suggest it has the capacity to have a train line run across it , but I'm not an architectural engineer so I could have missed something.
A possibility would be to build a tunnel that branches off just beyond 86th street and runs down from 4th avenue towards Ft. Hamilton Parkway , and then curves toward the bridge ... I don't see how it could be done from 95th street in any way that would make it less time consuming or more cost effective than extending down 4th avenue , and then via a tunnel , where it could link up directly with the SIRT on Staten Island.
Also , the bridge rises up onto and over a federally owned housing complex , and Ft.Hamilton Army base which is on federal land , so the MTA would have to get federal permission to do this project via the bridge irregardless of what Albany or New York City wanted to do.
It's already established that this project is not getting done at any point in the forseeable future for a multitude of reasons , but if the project was to get done the sensible thing now would be to build a tunnel from southern Manhattan and connect it with the abandoned tracks on the north shore of SI. Most of the commuters from SI are coming into the city to work , not the outer boroughs , so it would be kind of dumb to build the connection forcing everyone to travel through Brooklyn , not to mention the tunneling is a much shorter distance from southern Manhattan to Staten Island.
Can anyone point out anything I am missing? Thanks .
Last edited by MotormanMike; 04-24-2010 at 03:03 AM..
Mike, I believe the original proposal for the subway extension from 95 Street into Staten Island involved the construction of a tunnel.
I've always thought that a subway line from South Ferry to Staten Island should involve the #1. But upon further consideration, it could just as easily be the Broadway line. As a matter of fact, since the upcoming 2nd Avenue line is supposed to consist of two routes (one of which will be an extension of the Q line north of 57 Street, connecting with the 2nd Avenue tracks and running up to 125 Street), that would make an interesting service pattern if it included a line running to Staten Island. Connect it at St. George to the existing SIRT, and voila--full service from 125 Street to Tottenville!
I thought that the bridge was originally supposed to have the subway run on it. Why the idea was trashed, I'll never understand. It would make it easier for people to at least travel between SI and Bklyn, and provide an alternate route to Manhattan.
I don't feel New York City should bother to fund a subway system into Staten Island. No one really cares about Staten Island like that, and SI residents seem to feel the same about the other 4 boroughs. Staten Island has always wanted to be it's own. It will be a entirely way too costly dumb idea that'll drive the entire state, city, and the already incompetent MTA, into bankruptcy causing chaos citywide. They can barely scrape together the funds for the Second Avenue subway system, what makes people think they'll be able to pull off funding into Staten Island? It will never happen.
Well, let's see...the proposal to construct a cross-Queens express (running along the Long Island Expressway's right-of-way) was budgeted at $830 million. It was never built in its entirety, obviously, although we did get a portion of it with the present 63rd Street subway.
Considering that a line running all the way beneath the harbor is no easy engineering feat--and that the entire length of the Staten Island Railroad would have to be reconfigured to accommodate the narrower IRT cars, I myself would be rather scared to put a price tag on it. But I'm sure that something over $1 billion would be likely. And time-wise, if it was completed in less than a decade, I think everyone would have to declare victory.
This is why I don't think it'll ever happen, unless residents of Staten Island start screaming and don't let up. If you can move something from the community level to the point where politicians start worrying about being elected to office, there's always a chance!
Isn't the S.I.R. the same width as the BMT's (and the other one's) cars? It would be nice if it could go across the Verrazzano but then the travel times would be ridiculous. I think a NJT commuter rail line from S.I. up through Bayonne, etc. (or even towards Elizabeth) to Penn Station would be more practical.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
