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I sort of agree with ckhthankgod that I'm not sure the intent of the post (is it about a possible move or a very general and broad indictment of upstate NY?). On the other hand, it's hard to deny that many parts of upstate NY are struggling and a debate about if / when / how that can change, is needed at the highest levels in NYS. Everything should be on the table.
The census facts speak for itself that the 30-year migration trend from North-to-South continues. My personal belief is that this will continue and maybe even accelerate. The "world is getting smaller" with all the ways to stay in touch, communicate, travel....and the fact is more people know friends and relatives that have already "migrated." One only need to look at the recent list of Forbes fastest growing cities and see that the trend is still toward, warmer, sunnier, lower tax regions. (Four of the top 10 are in Texas, Phoenix is on the list, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc). We have friends from Albany that have joined us in Texas. While the Albany area scored a couple of private sector industries the last 10 years, this is not nearly the private sector growth that is needed to rejuvenate upstate.
Long story short, Upstate NY has significant challenges and it won't see much change or growth overnight. Unemployment continues to worsen while the rest of the Nation improves. In my opinion, since you can't do anything about the weather, the only thing to do is make drastic changes to the business climate (worst out of 50 states) and the personal tax situation (NY has the highest individual state tax burden every single year, link below). Three more states RIGHT NOW are planning to eliminate their state income tax. How can NY hope to attract businesses and attract/keep residents at such a competitive disadvantage? As I said, it seems people feel less tied-down than ever....and I don't hear a lot of people outside of NY saying "man, I'd really love to move North to Albany someday" though people sure do like to leave the Northeast. State and Local Tax Burdens: All States, One Year, 1977 - 2010 | Tax Foundation And a quote in the Forbes article I just read: “We tend to see a lot of relocations, particularly from the Northeast,” said James Sauls, Raleigh’s director of economic development. “Whether it’s cost of living, cost of doing business, overall quality of life, we seem to have an advantage.” The Raleigh MSA in 1990 had a population of 332,000, making it a third the size of Rochester, N.Y. By 2016 the city is projected to have a population of 1.4 million, making it larger than Rochester by the equivalent of one Omaha, Neb.
Great post, and I think all the stats being tossed around means nothing. Just go to Raleigh and get a feel for the place. It just *feels* different. What people don't realize is the intangibles. Until NY is able to compete with places like Raleigh, Austin, Portland, Denver, etc it will be a long time before NY recovers. And I include downstate as well, as people are leaving Long Island and other downstate counties in droves. Other places not only win in the arena of stats, but more importantly, in the areas of general feel. Day in and day out, this is what really matters, not the unemployment rate.
There's no point, to me, in starting a flame war, because in the end, its personal preference. You certainly can live well Upstate. For me, I like the quality of the apartments and the quality of the homes down South, many in the $600 a month range. I like the racial relations down South much, much more than the Northeast. The mass media that portrays the South as just toothless rednecks and segregation is such BS. Its Hollywood people who are clueless of anything outside of LA and NYC (which are the most segregated areas I've ever seen). I like that highways are new and wide, with many lanes, and people wait for you to merge, instead of laying on the horn like here. I like all the stores that cater to the needs of people in 2013- Whole Foods, Trader Joes, REI, etc. There's every store imaginable in the Triangle. No wait for restaurants or gas stations or anything- rush hour is an actual hour.
I also travel in other areas, and let me say, Upstate is way, way better than areas like Delmarva, southern Georgia, many parts of Florida, and places in Michigan that I've been to (the area between Toledo and Detroit is horrendous for pollution and despair, check out River Rogue on Google Maps). The area around Exit 13 on the NJ Turnpike smells like someone farted in a shoe and the immense smokestack pollution engulfs those neighborhoods. Check out North Texas sometime to see nothing but oil derricks and flat treeless land. Upstate has some really nice suburbs, theres no question about that. Syracuse, Albany, and Rochester have burbs that rival almost anywhere. However, outside those areas, NY has some serious work to do.
Great post, and I think all the stats being tossed around means nothing. Just go to Raleigh and get a feel for the place. It just *feels* different. What people don't realize is the intangibles. Until NY is able to compete with places like Raleigh, Austin, Portland, Denver, etc it will be a long time before NY recovers. And I include downstate as well, as people are leaving Long Island and other downstate counties in droves. Other places not only win in the arena of stats, but more importantly, in the areas of general feel. Day in and day out, this is what really matters, not the unemployment rate.
There's no point, to me, in starting a flame war, because in the end, its personal preference. You certainly can live well Upstate. For me, I like the quality of the apartments and the quality of the homes down South, many in the $600 a month range. I like the racial relations down South much, much more than the Northeast. The mass media that portrays the South as just toothless rednecks and segregation is such BS. Its Hollywood people who are clueless of anything outside of LA and NYC (which are the most segregated areas I've ever seen). I like that highways are new and wide, with many lanes, and people wait for you to merge, instead of laying on the horn like here. I like all the stores that cater to the needs of people in 2013- Whole Foods, Trader Joes, REI, etc. There's every store imaginable in the Triangle. No wait for restaurants or gas stations or anything- rush hour is an actual hour.
I also travel in other areas, and let me say, Upstate is way, way better than areas like Delmarva, southern Georgia, many parts of Florida, and places in Michigan that I've been to (the area between Toledo and Detroit is horrendous for pollution and despair, check out River Rogue on Google Maps). The area around Exit 13 on the NJ Turnpike smells like someone farted in a shoe and the immense smokestack pollution engulfs those neighborhoods. Check out North Texas sometime to see nothing but oil derricks and flat treeless land. Upstate has some really nice suburbs, theres no question about that. Syracuse, Albany, and Rochester have burbs that rival almost anywhere. However, outside those areas, NY has some
serious work to do.
This is fair and I actually agree in terms of the racial aspect, to a degree. I think the fact that the demographics and residential patterns are different, as well as the county school systems has something to do with this as well. It is sad to say, but this may be a stumbling block for NY, as we have some of the most segregated residential patterns in the country.
In turn, the systems show this as well. I don't think it is essential, but it is an interesting observation.
I'm not sure that Upstate metros/cities have to be like those cities, but I do think the one thing that Upstate areas have to do is tap into the college talent and become more creative in terms of industries. It doesn't hurt that Raleigh, Denver and Austin are capital cities and in turn will be cities on at least a state and in this case, a national level, with a high educational attainment. Raleigh and Austin have big state colleges in their areas. Denver is only behind DC in terms of federal government employment, if I'm not mistaken. All of those areas are either the biggest or are close to the biggest in terms of metro size for their state. So, I think the Upstate metros have to carve out their niche. Smaller metros like Ithaca and Glens Falls are solid and may be areas to keep an eye on for the future. I know Watertown and Plattsburgh have been adding people within city limits and may be intriguing as well.
Having purchased the home I originally rented upon moving here, I paid just shy of $1100 up front in property taxes. The ratio of $1000/yr in property taxes per $100000 appraised value is pretty commonplace here in The Valley. I recently purchased so what I paid was the property taxes.
You are given a registration tax on your vehicles based on the approximate value of your vehicles at DMV. It's a few hundred bucks for 2 years of registration on my 2 vehicles. Just emissions tests every 2 years and no auto inspections. That is another NY State racket. The State allows dishonest private auto mechanics to rake you over the coals with BS to fail your annual inspections in order to line their pockets. It's bureaucratic crap like that which makes many leave.
Food costs are comparable btw.
Not to argue, but I don't think I've paid more than 21 dollars for an inspection.
I did a COL comparison of Chandler AZ and Amherst on another site, BTW. Chandler was 100 and Amherst was 99.
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
You do realize that cost of living should be factored in and is skewed by Downstate in regards to what you mentioned. Teacher's salaries are going to be high given the educational requirement and attainment in NY due to needing or getting a Master's degree. So, AZ isn't exclusive in terms of having things "skewed".
Please accept allready that the salaries run higher because of the union involvement and not the education level. Most locales have significant numbers of teachers with Masters degrees, it is not uniques to New Yorks education system.
Please accept allready that the salaries run higher because of the union involvement and not the education level. Most locales have significant numbers of teachers with Masters degrees, it is not uniques to New Yorks education system.
While the union may play a part, it isn't necessarily true that all teachers are required to have a Master's degree. For instance, in NC it only required for HS and I think middle school/junior high. So, it varies.
If your gonna say "NY" and "NC" I think it would be fair to ask what kind of results these highly educated teachers in say Rochester or Syrcuse were getting over some of the hayseed NC hick teachers.
Maybe NY isn't getting enough cluck for the buck so to speak.
If your gonna say "NY" and "NC" I think it would be fair to ask what kind of results these highly educated teachers in say Rochester or Syrcuse were getting over some of the hayseed NC hick teachers.
Maybe NY isn't getting enough cluck for the buck so to speak.
It is tough to compare as one has Countywide systems and the other has localized systems. Urban schools are struggling throughout the country. So, that isn't exclusive to NY, but you can find some good urban schools and school students throughout the country as well. Ironically, when looking at national school rankings in publications, Buffalo's City Honors is the highest ranked public(it is a magnet) school in NY and is in the top 10 or so in the country.
Well it seems common to look at southern teachers as slack jawed yokels.
I'd like to see some proof they couldn't do at least as well as the results NY is getting at a better price.
Doesn't syracuse have a school with like a 25% graduation rate?? How much worse can a MW cashier from Walmart do??
Meanwhile many kids all over the south are doing fine.
Making a blanket saying like "NY has better schools" is at best dishonest. Is Fowler different then FM?? Does it cost more to live near one vs the other??
Having said that, I do want albany to be better off economically.
People don't seem to understand that all of Albany problems go away if we achieve some sort of economic vitality:
- If there are jobs, the population increases
- If the population increases taxes wont need to rise so quickly
- Lower taxes results in more businesses and people wanted relocate
- A greater population leads more downtown amenities and all those godawful chain stores you people want so much.
Just look at Malta. Its like a brand new town. thats what happens when theres jobs. Now of course the million dollar questions is how does the area grow its economy? Well there are certainly some investments the city/state/Feds/investors could make that could help:
- Expand Ualbany, St. Rose, Union, Siena. I don't want them to increas their academic standards, just build more dorms to accept more students.
- Expand Albany Med and St. Peter's
- Get another semiconductor company to build a fab in the area and get globalfoundries to expand
- give tax breaks to downtown building owners to improve there building office space.
- forget about the convention center and use the money for the above programs
In my opinion these above steps could help turn this area around.
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