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Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states.
For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
I've had the same reaction comparing across the state line from Conn, Mass and Vt. As for NJ, in some places New York seems nicer, e.g., West Milford seems dumpy compared to Warwick. But in general along the NY-New England border, the New England towns seem more attractive. I'm going to say it has something to do with the town structure in the New England states and the settlement history. Way back the NY colony was full of "patents" where the governor or the king awarded huge tracts of land to rich cronies. Towns emerged within those territories as trading and service centers; they began for some economic reason rather than to set up a new community, and when the economic impetus falters the town falls on hard times. NE was about settlement and community, not getting rich on resource extraction, and NE towns are very mindful of their histories. Even now the towns govern and take care of themselves without county services or oversight. Lots of inefficiencies in the system but it has its pluses. But NE has many places that grew big for economic reasons and later lost their mojo -- from Waterbury CT to Berlin NH -- and many of those places are as run down as any ramshackle town in NYS.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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I feel like I answered this exact question on another thread recently. Rather in depth too.
Weird.
My theory is that NY's condition is based on many factors.
For a lot of upstate, its meteoric rise was due to the Erie Canal. Once highways and air travel made that obsolete, a massive portion of NY became obsolete too.
NY has faced a portion of many challenges often associated with other states. The rust belt effect destroyed a lot of upstate's manufacturing.
The rugged terrain in more than half the state made vehicle transportation difficult (NY highways are expensive as all get out). Even the flat I-90 corridor along lake Ontario is all swamp, so the road keeps sinking and cracking.
The death of the local copper mining industry left a lot of small towns to rot away.
NY's lop-sided state laws and politics made many things difficult for upstate, and still do. Including but not limited to the state government's poor approach to poverty. Sweeping it under the rug instead of fixing it.
The list goes on and on and on. When compared to New England, NY is just so much bigger. More surface for scars. So the immediate difference is very notable. On the flip side, crossing in from Pennsylvania warrants little to no change at all.
Last edited by CookieSkoon; 02-21-2020 at 09:06 AM..
I've had the same reaction comparing across the state line from Conn, Mass and Vt. As for NJ, in some places New York seems nicer, e.g., West Milford seems dumpy compared to Warwick. But in general along the NY-New England border, the New England towns seem more attractive. I'm going to say it has something to do with the town structure in the New England states and the settlement history. Way back the NY colony was full of "patents" where the governor or the king awarded huge tracts of land to rich cronies. Towns emerged within those territories as trading and service centers; they began for some economic reason rather than to set up a new community, and when the economic impetus falters the town falls on hard times. NE was about settlement and community, not getting rich on resource extraction, and NE towns are very mindful of their histories. Even now the towns govern and take care of themselves without county services or oversight. Lots of inefficiencies in the system but it has its pluses. But NE has many places that grew big for economic reasons and later lost their mojo -- from Waterbury CT to Berlin NH -- and many of those places are as run down as any ramshackle town in NYS.
Exactly. I think modern day zoning laws have carried the large land tract concepts forward. 1-2 acre zoning, restrictions on mobile homes, etc.
And there is a fair amount of protected land in CT and MA along the NY border, too.
To bring this back to the original discussion, since it seems we got lost talking about Rockland County, the OP has some interesting and true observations, to an extent. There are some areas of MA/VT/CT as rural as parts of NY, and yes, some of the towns in NY are ramshackle. I think it has to do with a long evolution of government, town insulation, and also where you are visiting. Much of NW CT has been buoyed by lower CT wealth. Many second homes are in Litchfield County. Western MA can be a little desolate and ramshackle. VT relies a lot on its ski industry and I feel its small towns are very insular. Each town seems to have similar services and stores and people stick to them. I find in certain counties of NY, people travel from afar to a certain area to shop these days. I feel that the downfall of some NY towns occurred way before Walmart even moved in.
If you look at the Catskills, much of the area has not quite recovered after the heyday of the resorts in the 1950s/60s. New Yorkers no longer travel in droves to go there, and that has weighed on many once thriving towns. As some towns saw fewer tourists and passers-by, stores closed, and then as big box came in, it further drew people away. People travel to towns like Kingston, Catskill, Oneonta to shop from 20 minutes away now. I feel that Vermont never had a thriving resort industry to collapse....the ski slopes are still there as they have been for decades.
Many parts of upstate New York are ramshackle because either there were never any economic opportunities there and it is too far off the beaten path for tourism. Outside of the more touristy areas of Upstate NY like the Catskills, Lake George/Lake Placid area and some hippie towns in Ulster County, the rural parts are quite poor, have a very low cost of living, are very Republican, white, and quite frankly look indistinguishable from most of West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and other impoverished Appalachian areas of the US. Delaware County is the prime example of a ramshackle county in NY. Having a population of 40k, it's in the heart of the Catskills, bordering Ulster County, Broome County, Schoharie County, and Wayne County PA, is about 3 to 3 and half hours from NYC, has no major highways, universities, tourism or shopping areas and the biggest town (Delhi) has only a few thousand people. The median household income there is only slightly above $40k with cost of living much below the US average. It is nearly 100% white, 70% trump supporters, a large portion of the housing stock is mobile homes, has about a 25% poverty rate and is one of the few areas of the Northeast with a high rate of methamphetamine usage. Delaware and other counties like these (Schoharie, Herkimer, Montgomery, etc) are demographically and socioeconomically nothing like the rest of NY state and are just like backwater areas of WV and KY.
As for NJ, there really are no true "rural" areas, and the few rural-ish areas in the state have income levels that are no lower than the average suburban town there. CT and MA do have rural areas, but very few of those areas are poor as there are some tourism activities, and there is still a lot of "old money" in CT & MA. In Vermont however, the touristy rural parts (south and west parts of the state) that attract skiers and hippies, have very low poverty rates, while the rural parts in the state north and east, that get virtually zero tourism (Orleans County for example) have high poverty rates and the lifestyle there is very similar to the aforementioned areas in NYS as well as WV and KY.
Many parts of upstate New York are ramshackle because either there were never any economic opportunities there and it is too far off the beaten path for tourism. Outside of the more touristy areas of Upstate NY like the Catskills, Lake George/Lake Placid area and some hippie towns in Ulster County, the rural parts are quite poor, have a very low cost of living, are very Republican, white, and quite frankly look indistinguishable from most of West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and other impoverished Appalachian areas of the US. Delaware County is the prime example of a ramshackle county in NY. Having a population of 40k, it's in the heart of the Catskills, bordering Ulster County, Broome County, Schoharie County, and Wayne County PA, is about 3 to 3 and half hours from NYC, has no major highways, universities, tourism or shopping areas and the biggest town (Delhi) has only a few thousand people. The median household income there is only slightly above $40k with cost of living much below the US average. It is nearly 100% white, 70% trump supporters, a large portion of the housing stock is mobile homes, has about a 25% poverty rate and is one of the few areas of the Northeast with a high rate of methamphetamine usage. Delaware and other counties like these (Schoharie, Herkimer, Montgomery, etc) are demographically and socioeconomically nothing like the rest of NY state and are just like backwater areas of WV and KY.
As for NJ, there really are no true "rural" areas, and the few rural-ish areas in the state have income levels that are no lower than the average suburban town there. CT and MA do have rural areas, but very few of those areas are poor as there are some tourism activities, and there is still a lot of "old money" in CT & MA. In Vermont however, the touristy rural parts (south and west parts of the state) that attract skiers and hippies, have very low poverty rates, while the rural parts in the state north and east, that get virtually zero tourism (Orleans County for example) have high poverty rates and the lifestyle there is very similar to the aforementioned areas in NYS as well as WV and KY.
I wouldn't go THAT far in terms of being like WV and KY.
Also, the parts of NY next to PA are similar to the areas of PA they are next to.
There are parts of rural/small town Upstate NY that can be relatively affluent and rural/small town areas of the bordering states that aren't as "polished" as well.
Orleans and Montgomery counties are a little bit different than the other counties mentioned in that they have communities that a relatively quite racially/ethnically diverse like Albion and Medina in Orleans County and Amsterdam in Montgomery County. Delhi may be different due to having a SUNY campus and same for Herkimer.
I wouldn't go THAT far in terms of being like WV and KY.
Also, the parts of NY next to PA are similar to the areas of PA they are next to.
There are parts of rural/small town Upstate NY that can be relatively affluent and rural/small town areas of the bordering states that aren't as "polished" as well.
Orleans and Montgomery counties are a little bit different than the other counties mentioned in that they have communities that a relatively quite racially/ethnically diverse like Albion and Medina in Orleans County and Amsterdam in Montgomery County. Delhi may be different due to having a SUNY campus and same for Herkimer.
I live in NJ but receive a NYS pension, which NJ taxes because it's NJ and they'd tax the dead if they could. Someday I will bail out of Jersey, and I plan to go north. Vermont is my first choice, but they tax the pension so no. Maine is the same. NH doesn't tax pensions, and MA has a reciprocal agreement with NYS not to tax each others' pensions. Western MA is nice.
Then there is, of course, New York State itself. I drive the I-81 corridor once a month to get to Ontario, and there is some beautiful country in New York comparable to New England, but my concern would be the poverty-stricken, Trump-supporting types of towns. I wouldn't fit in there. I don't need a wildly liberal area or a particularly affluent area, but I need some open-mindedness.
So, ckhthankgod, when I'm ready to relocate, I'm going to be looking to YOU for advice. I appreciate all the good info about NYS that you provide on this forum.
Also, out of curiosity, how are the areas that are close to eastern Lake Ontario? I don't mean Watertown. I stay there all the time in my travels (and know now how to drive through lake-effect snowstorms, lol), but I wouldn't want to live there. I mean actually closer to the lake.
I wouldn't go THAT far in terms of being like WV and KY.
Also, the parts of NY next to PA are similar to the areas of PA they are next to.
There are parts of rural/small town Upstate NY that can be relatively affluent and rural/small town areas of the bordering states that aren't as "polished" as well.
Orleans and Montgomery counties are a little bit different than the other counties mentioned in that they have communities that a relatively quite racially/ethnically diverse like Albion and Medina in Orleans County and Amsterdam in Montgomery County. Delhi may be different due to having a SUNY campus and same for Herkimer.
I would go that far to make that comparison, as I've driven through backwater areas in both Sullivan & Delaware counties in NY, as well as in WV. The poor towns you see in this part of NY such as Delhi, Deposit, Liberty, Hancock, Ellenville, etc, look quite like the poor towns in WV & KY such as Williamson, Welch, Bluefield, Matewan, etc, especially with the mountains in the background. The only main differences between those towns in NY and those in WV are the lack of southern accents, higher household incomes (but this is offset by higher taxes), and Stewart's Shoppes instead of Go-Marts. You even see rebel flags in front of homes in rural Upstate NY.
That being said, there are plenty of towns way in the middle of nowhere in Upstate NY that are quite beautiful and don't have the poverty problem, such as Woodstock, Canajoharie, Cooperstown, and Watkins Glen. Not everywhere in rural upstate NY has high poverty, but there are still many areas that have poverty rates comparable to the Appalachian south.
I live in NJ but receive a NYS pension, which NJ taxes because it's NJ and they'd tax the dead if they could. Someday I will bail out of Jersey, and I plan to go north. Vermont is my first choice, but they tax the pension so no. Maine is the same. NH doesn't tax pensions, and MA has a reciprocal agreement with NYS not to tax each others' pensions. Western MA is nice.
Then there is, of course, New York State itself. I drive the I-81 corridor once a month to get to Ontario, and there is some beautiful country in New York comparable to New England, but my concern would be the poverty-stricken, Trump-supporting types of towns. I wouldn't fit in there. I don't need a wildly liberal area or a particularly affluent area, but I need some open-mindedness.
So, ckhthankgod, when I'm ready to relocate, I'm going to be looking to YOU for advice. I appreciate all the good info about NYS that you provide on this forum.
Also, out of curiosity, how are the areas that are close to eastern Lake Ontario? I don't mean Watertown. I stay there all the time in my travels (and know now how to drive through lake-effect snowstorms, lol), but I wouldn't want to live there. I mean actually closer to the lake.
Sackets Harbor is a nice, quaint town on the lake and the General Brown SD(communities such as Dexter, Brownville, Glen Park, etc.) is a nice area closer to the lake as well. Henderson Harbor is another community on the lake that has a good reputation.
Kieran, McDowell County WV’s poverty rate is 35.4%, while Sullivan County’s is 16.2%. Mingo County WV’s poverty rate is 27%, while Delaware County’s rate is 15%. So, while there may be similarities between select communities, the rates on a county level are more dire for those WV counties. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...york/PST045219
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 02-29-2020 at 04:38 PM..
I would go that far to make that comparison, as I've driven through backwater areas in both Sullivan & Delaware counties in NY, as well as in WV. The poor towns you see in this part of NY such as Delhi, Deposit, Liberty, Hancock, Ellenville, etc, look quite like the poor towns in WV & KY such as Williamson, Welch, Bluefield, Matewan, etc, especially with the mountains in the background. The only main differences between those towns in NY and those in WV are the lack of southern accents, higher household incomes (but this is offset by higher taxes), and Stewart's Shoppes instead of Go-Marts. You even see rebel flags in front of homes in rural Upstate NY.
That being said, there are plenty of towns way in the middle of nowhere in Upstate NY that are quite beautiful and don't have the poverty problem, such as Woodstock, Canajoharie, Cooperstown, and Watkins Glen. Not everywhere in rural upstate NY has high poverty, but there are still many areas that have poverty rates comparable to the Appalachian south.
Poverty in WV is much deeper and more dire than anywhere in NYS. Some of those areas you mentioned are in McDowell County, WV, which has a 33% poverty rate vs 13% for Delaware County.
Also McDowell County has lost 80,000 people since 1950 (out of 98,000). Delaware County population is the same as it was in 1950.
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I appreciate all the good info about NYS that you provide on this forum.
