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Well we've just had another ranting anti-NY/NJ lunatic [Mod Cut]. This is in addition to what I perceive to be a major upcoming problem in NEPA of homegrown natives "doing battle" with the newcomers from NY/NJ. It seems like I come across this hostility on a daily basis in some way, shape, or form, even just the other day when my own father was slamming the New Yorkers who were purchasing units in a new luxury townhome community near Pittston left and right.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a "vanilla" area such as NEPA where the overwhelming majority of residents are Caucasian (mostly of Irish, Italian, or German descent), Roman Catholic (with some packets of Protestants), heterosexual (with a massive closeted LGBT community), and largely not possessing a formal education beyond high school is going to be clashing with a sudden influx of people from diverse sociocultural and socioeconomic backgrounds, ethnicities, religious beliefs, and sexual orientations. However, why must this be the case? Other than the lowlife scumbags who are moving to Wilkes-Barre from Newark in order to peddle crack (who are few and far between), 95% of those moving to NEPA from NY/NJ are doing so for the following reasons:
1.) They're tiring of renting in NY/NJ and can not afford the overinflated housing prices in their native area. Housing prices in NEPA, on average, are half of what they are when you cross the Delaware River, which makes it attractive for some to extend their commutes by 45-60 minutes each way in order to provide their children with a home as opposed to a cramped apartment in Passaic, Hackensack, or Brooklyn.
2.) 9/11 and the reality that terrorists will most likely strike Greater NYC again at some point in the future have some people frightened enough to consider moving here so that they won't be in harm's way in the future and can breathe a sigh of relief.
3.) They are disgruntled that they pay, on average, 2-3 times as much in annual property taxes on a home in North Jersey for "average" services---almost a case of "taxation without representation." They see just how LOW taxes are in NEPA in comparison (Yes, Legion of Doom, Scranton's taxes are indeed lower-than-average in relation to many other areas), and they realize it's a better deal to move to NEPA to save on annual taxes while often times reaping better municipal services at the same time.
4.) The gridlock on I-80, I-78, and even surface streets in North Jersey is grotesque. Air pollution is high in Greater NYC. Urban sprawl has left many residing in neighborhoods that are sterile, unfriendly, transient, cookie-cuttter, and non-walkable due to their isolation from other areas. That whole aura of "congestion" has many wanting to flee to NEPA in order to spread out, relax, and become inspired again.
5.) PA doesn't tax pensions (at least not to my knowledge). Our sales tax of 6.0% is lower than NY/NJ. We have casinos, ski resorts, quaint small downtowns, gorgeous state parks, pastoral settings, etc. in our midst that we natives take for granted. While we moan and groan about how "undesirable" NEPA is, people from NY/NJ see it as a perfect place for retirement, vacation homes, and in the case of artists to "find their inspiration."
These are just five reasons I could think of off the top of my head as to why people from NY/NJ are flooding into NEPA annually. I'm sure Summering, MemoriesBre, MollyMe, and other natives of NJ/NY could give you even more reasons why they opted to come here as opposed to staying in their home states. Contrary to what that ranting idiot Manny was saying, most are NOT coming here to deal drugs, recruit gang members, commit homicides, etc. Yes, the crime rate in Monroe County is skyrocketing, but that's in proportion to the increase in population (I believe it has now grown by about 100,000 residents since 1990---that's like sticking the entire city of Allentown into the county).
It's not fair to scapegoat the newcomers for the problems that are now occurring in NEPA. One might argue that if PA landowners weren't such greedy sell-outs that our trees wouldn't be falling left and right to make way for gated and planned communities. One might argue that if PA realtors weren't so profit-hungry that they wouldn't be aggressively-advertising NEPA as a relocation destination in the NYC media marketplace. One might argue that if PA politicians weren't so inept that they would be taking a more pro-active approach towards offering financial incentives in order to try directing some of the new transplants into pre-existing neighborhoods in our struggling boroughs and cities as opposed to watching in horror as they ALL move to housing developments on our urban periphery. There's plenty of blame to go around, so I just wish the locals would get off their anti-NY/NJ rant for once to open their eyes---these newcomers bleed the same color blood, speak the same language (with the exception of the Latin influx to places like Hazleton), drive on the same side of the roadway, pay the same taxes, fought valiantly in the same wars, and vote in the same elections. They are not some sort of vile creatures that must be "staved off."
I, for one, would like to utilize this opportunity to tell the NY/NJ lurkers on this forum who might be considering a move to Pennsylvania that we're not all intolerant, hateful, poorly-educated rednecks like ex-member Manny was. You'll notice that especially my teenaged and twenty-something generation is quite accepting and tolerant of new ideas, customs, and beliefs, and you should feel welcome in any corner of NEPA. I'd like to PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE from the bottom of my heart urge you to consider one of the thousands of existing established or newer-construction homes that are on the market in NEPA before automatically clearing a lot for a new home, as we're now experiencing an oversaturated real estate market in the Poconos that can't absorb too much more new construction. Nevertheless, welcome to NEPA---a great place to raise a family!
P.S. Does anyone have any solutions on what can be done in the long-term to bridge the gap between the PA natives and the newcomers from NY/NJ?
Last edited by ontheroad; 12-22-2007 at 11:19 AM..
Reason: Removed reference to member name.
Nice post Paul. I agree with all your points. I'm no longer a newcomer to PA since I have been here since 1987, but me and my family moved to PA for many of the reasons that you stated in your post.
I feelings on this are areas that consist of strongly ethnic Whites ie. irish, Itialian, polish ect....gow up in xenophoic households. Why?, i think it has to do witht he fact that they where at one point subject to discrimination. No excuse but i think that plays a part. You are the native now therefore don't except outsiders in without a fight. ASk any newyorker about up untill recently what happend when a "different" person moved into a neighborhood. NJ is still likethat in many places.
I dissagree with the no college comment. My highschool passed 95% of students onto college or trade school. Scranton doesnt lack educated people, it lack corporate jobs. That is the biggest issue.
I feelings on this are areas that consist of strongly ethnic Whites ie. irish, Itialian, polish ect....gow up in xenophoic households. Why?, i think it has to do witht he fact that they where at one point subject to discrimination. No excuse but i think that plays a part. You are the native now therefore don't except outsiders in without a fight. ASk any newyorker about up untill recently what happend when a "different" person moved into a neighborhood. NJ is still likethat in many places.
Nevertheless, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one minority group was discriminated against at some other point in history does not provide them with the authority to proceed onward with persecuting another minority group as some sort of "revenge." I saw this in my own suburban subdivision when a lesbian couple from Philadelphia was considering purchasing a home here. You should have heard the disgusting gossiping about "there goes the neighborhood" that some of my intolerant neighbors were spewing forth. It truly sickened me to say that I hailed from NEPA to hear vitriol like that, especially since they were unaware the myself and at least one other person in our development was gay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by to570717
I dissagree with the no college comment. My highschool passed 95% of students onto college or trade school. Scranton doesnt lack educated people, it lack corporate jobs. That is the biggest issue.
Are you talking about Scranton Prep? I hailed from Pittston Area, and the vast majority of our students went onto college or trade school as well. However, a very significant portion of them went to institutions of higher learning outside of our area and have vowed never to return. As such, I don't include them in our "educated" demographic, nor does the U.S. Census Bureau, which portrays a VERY bleak picture of our area's overall educational attainment levels (which is why we can't attract any high-tech employers). I cringe whenever I see the social sections in the local newspapers and see our brilliant engineers, scientists, researchers, and other professionals with articles that say "After a honeymoon in such and such, the couple will reside in some community outside of NEPA" while the ones who dropped out of high school and now work at gas stations are mostly the ones who stay here. I'd like to get an intellectual "vibe" from my peers as I make the risky decision to stay in Scranton after graduate school; I don't want to have to associate with peers who think "high-class" is sitting in the corner bar in Green Ridge kvetching about political corruption every night after work while neglecting their families or people who think that the first day of hunting season is long overdue to be proclaimed a national holiday. I want a thriving arts/cultural scene, and we can't have that here unless more college-eduated people stay. If they all move onward to "greener pastures," then this city is destined for a future of destitution.
I don't want to have to associate with peers who think "high-class" is sitting in the corner bar in Green Ridge kvetching about political corruption every night after work while neglecting their families or people who think that the first day of hunting season is long overdue to be proclaimed a national holiday. (
I don't wish to associate with these type of people either.
P.S. Does anyone have any solutions on what can be done in the long-term to bridge the gap between the PA natives and the newcomers from NY/NJ?
Build a really big wall all the way around NEPA and then charge $1,000,000 for anyone who wants to move here! Just kidding!
I always wondered why more people from the NY Metro area didn't just move to Western or Northwestern New Jersey, they would be closer to their jobs and friends in the city. If you drive West on I-80 from NYC, from Netcong or even Rockaway, all you see, for the most part, from there to the Water Gap is mountains, farm lands and open spaces, why don't people just move there, is it because of the taxes? Is all that land a State Forest? or National Forest? That part of Jersey looks just like the Poconos do, and it's a heck a of a lot closer to the city and you don't have to worry about crossing the Delaware at that bottle neck know as the Water Gap.
Build a really big wall all the way around NEPA and then charge $1,000,000 for anyone who wants to move here! Just kidding!
I always wondered why more people from the NY Metro area didn't just move to Western or Northwestern New Jersey, they would be closer to their jobs and friends in the city. If you drive West on I-80 from NYC, from Netcong or even Rockaway, all you see, for the most part, from there to the Water Gap is mountains, farm lands and open spaces, why don't people just move there, is it because of the taxes? Is all that land a State Forest? or National Forest? That part of Jersey looks just like the Poconos do, and it's a heck a of a lot closer to the city and you don't have to worry about crossing the Delaware at that bottle neck know as the Water Gap.
It's an enigma to me as well. During a heated debate on the NJ forum back in December I listed relatively-inexpensive homes for sale in and around Netcong and Budd Lake, NJ, yet I was met with a barrage of people blasting me because these towns were "too far too commute." Nevertheless, people are flocking to areas up to an hour west of these two towns and commuting to NYC, so why someone can't move to Netcong and commute to work in Passaic or Morristown is beyond me.
It's an enigma to me as well. During a heated debate on the NJ forum back in December I listed relatively-inexpensive homes for sale in and around Netcong and Budd Lake, NJ, yet I was met with a barrage of people blasting me because these towns were "too far too commute." Nevertheless, people are flocking to areas up to an hour west of these two towns and commuting to NYC, so why someone can't move to Netcong and commute to work in Passaic or Morristown is beyond me.
If you look at the census numbers:
New Jersey:
Sussex County
2000 144,166
2006 153,384
6.3% Increase
Warren County
2000 102,437
2006 110,919
8.3% Increase
Pennsylvania:
Monroe County
2000 138,687
2006 165,685
19.5% Increase
Pike County
2000 46,302
2006 58,195
25.7% Increase
If you look at the numbers, I realize not everybody that moves to Monroe and Pike County is from New Jersey and New York. But it seems like a lot less people are moving to Warren and Sussex Counties in New Jersey than to Monroe and Pike Counties. It's like people are just hopping from Rockaway, NJ right into the Poconos. Maybe the munis and townships in Warren and Sussex Counties are buying up all the land so it won't or can't be developed, like they're trying to do around Philly, except with the Philly suburbs the damage has already been done, and they are trying to save what's left.
It brings up a good point, even Northern and Western Passaic County and Western Morris County in New Jersey are not that densely populated. What if New Jersey Metro just made spur lines from the NJ transit railroad into these counties, maybe more people would start to think of moving there, instead of even further West and more headaches and complaints about the commuting from the Poconos. Fill in Northwestern and Western New Jersey first, before you start destroying the Poconos!
Observations from a NJ person who will be moving to PA:
Budd Lake/Netcong, Lake Hopatcong can be low income and higher crime rate, with drug activity, hence the reason why these areas are being passed over, even though they are lower priced. People aren't moving to western NJ because you still have higher property taxes, higher car insurance, less services, higher sales tax - hence, for a little further commute you get PA.
We're moving for many of the reasons cited: taxes, car insurance, less congestion, calmer way of life. Husband is retired (young in 50's), and I telecommute, so once the last child is out of HS, we're out of NJ. It's just toooooooo expensive anymore. And yes, PA does not tax pensions -- good news for us. I just got back from a business trip and upon arriving at Newark Airport, looked around and thought to myself "I can't wait to get to PA". The congestion around here is wicked.
As for the NY/NJ hatred, I believe I have a somewhat unique view. I have a rather large family from the NEPA area (father is one of 12, mother one of 10) so although I was raised in NJ, I feel like NEPA is like a second home to me. I can confirm what Paul says, that the area is pretty tolerant of the NY/NJ people. I've grown up around the "locals" and can't say I've seen or heard much prejudice. The only complaint I hear is about traffic jams in the summer, other than that, people are good natured, welcoming, and know that much of the NJ/NY influx has increased business in the area and helped create jobs.
So now we sweat out the economy for the next year to decide if it will be the right time to sell, or wait a little longer so we can get a decent price for our house. Time can't move fast enough.
Great post Paul.
I don't know if there is a solution. I have lived here 13 years and in the area I live in I see no progress being made with this problem. The local business owners, who cannot survive without the income from the NY/NJ tourists and transplants are still quick to bash them. And they feel no shame in doing it.
I still remember about 10 yrs ago they ran a clip on channel 16, that was filmed in a local diner in Hamlin and it was titled 'the invasion'. The locals all sat around and bitched about the toursits. Guess when they ran it...Labor Day. They would have kept their mouths shut on Memorial Day, but after the whole summer is over..then they ***** while their bank accounts are full to carry them over to the next summer.
The racial problems in our local HS, Western Wayne, also stemmed from this mentality. Yuo would think we were back in the slave days if you heard some of the comments coming out of adult's mouths. How on earth are we to expect their HS aged children to behave in a civilized manner if their parents are that backward? My daughter had a freind who was not allowed to come to a Birthday Party at my home because blacks live in The Hideout. This same family owns a business in WAymart and refuses to service black people. Meanwhile their own daughter has overdosed a number of times, and brags about her recent abortion experience at school. Her parents have the nerve to pass judgement on others.
While I consider myself a Pennsylvanian and I am proud of it, I still frown on the constant bashing of NY/NJ folks.
The people who move to our area are not welfare recepients, they are buying big homes, paying taxes, and contributing their fare share. While I can understand how it would upset Pa folks to see their area change do to a low class of people who bring crime and drugs to the area, this is not the case in my area. However the bashing still goes on while they eagerly take every dollar you spend with a smile on their face.
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I'd like to get an intellectual "vibe" from my peers as I make the risky decision to stay in Scranton after graduate school; I don't want to have to associate with peers who think "high-class" is sitting in the corner bar in Green Ridge kvetching about political corruption every night after work while neglecting their families or people who think that the first day of hunting season is long overdue to be proclaimed a national holiday. 
