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I've been looking at the cost of living in some of the areas near the NJ border in NEPA and I find it is a LOT LOT LOT cheaper than the NYC area.
But, I have a question: What do people mostly do there for a living? I would be interested in moving and don't mind any kind of job at this point (as long as it pays enough to live). I'm not looking for luxury, or a high standard of living - just enough to pay rent, eat and save a bit.
It's basically a tourism economy. No industry to speak of, no corporate HQ, no factories. There is a UPS distribution center, a regional hospital, lots of big-box stores, and that's about it. In the Lehigh Valley you have legitimate corporate HQ and industry -- Olympus, concrete plant, factories, airport etc. Notsomuch up here.
We do have ski resorts, the national park, lots of lodging and tourism activities. So lots of people are associated with that type of service sector job. Which pay, as you might guess, minimum wage or barely above it.
Therefore, thousands of people move here and continue working in NJ or NY -- it's just impossible to make a living and support a family up here on minimum-wage jobs.
Cost of living is somewhat cheaper here, but looks can be deceptive. You pay a lot more to get around -- everything is farther away. You pay high property tax in some areas -- granted, not as much as northern NJ, but it's not a bargain in a lot of places anymore. You pay higher gas and food costs and you pay for things like water, sewer and garbage pickup. Your heating choices are usually oil or electric -- no gas lines run through the area so gas heat isn't an option. That gets very expensive, especially if you live in an older home with substandard insulation (and most built earlier than the late '90s are substandard, as there was no building code up here.
Schools are not great. Shopping is adequate, but there is only one mall and it's pretty sparse. One movie theater, with a couple of small outliers. An amateur playhouse, a concert hall downtown that brings in some music shows of the third-tier variety. And that's pretty much it for culture.
It's basically a tourism economy. No industry to speak of, no corporate HQ, no factories. There is a UPS distribution center, a regional hospital, lots of big-box stores, and that's about it. In the Lehigh Valley you have legitimate corporate HQ and industry -- Olympus, concrete plant, factories, airport etc. Notsomuch up here.
We do have ski resorts, the national park, lots of lodging and tourism activities. So lots of people are associated with that type of service sector job. Which pay, as you might guess, minimum wage or barely above it.
Therefore, thousands of people move here and continue working in NJ or NY -- it's just impossible to make a living and support a family up here on minimum-wage jobs.
Cost of living is somewhat cheaper here, but looks can be deceptive. You pay a lot more to get around -- everything is farther away. You pay high property tax in some areas -- granted, not as much as northern NJ, but it's not a bargain in a lot of places anymore. You pay higher gas and food costs and you pay for things like water, sewer and garbage pickup. Your heating choices are usually oil or electric -- no gas lines run through the area so gas heat isn't an option. That gets very expensive, especially if you live in an older home with substandard insulation (and most built earlier than the late '90s are substandard, as there was no building code up here.
Schools are not great. Shopping is adequate, but there is only one mall and it's pretty sparse. One movie theater, with a couple of small outliers. An amateur playhouse, a concert hall downtown that brings in some music shows of the third-tier variety. And that's pretty much it for culture.
Lots to do outdoors, however. Can't be beat.
HTH
Thank you for this commentary.
Culture: I'm very used to it, close to NYC and lived in Europe for a while so that will definitely be a big difference. However, I find that as I get older, I "go out" less and so my needs aren't as cultural as they once were. I figure that if I really want to catch something interesting NEPA is still close enough to NYC that I can go from time to time.
Cost of living: Ah, I see. So it is basically a commuter area. I'm looking for cheap, small town living, not something like you describe in NEPA. Do you know of anywhere in PA that may offer that? I don't necessarily want to be "close" to NYC.
One HUGE drawback though: I don't drive, so it would have to be a town that is "walker" friendly.
As far as jobs...seems like a difficult situation then. What do people do in small towns? Im sure not all of the people living in small towns in affordable quarters work in big companies or high paying jobs but I could be wrong here as well.
I live in Williamsport and I've considered moving to Stroudsburg just to be closer to NYC. Currently it takes me four hours to reach NYC and I'd like to cut that to two hours. I have not visited Stroudsburg but it sounds very similar to Williamsport.
Williamsport is beyond commuting distance from NYC so there isn't an invasion of New Yorkers. The city is gradually improving as the fracking industry causes more investment in the area. My cost of living is very low. I like to torment big city residents by comparing electric bills, rent, taxes, etc. Heating oil is definitely a major expense and I expect to receive several large bills this winter.
Small towns in PA are very boring. My city tries to be especially boring. The list of local events is pitiful and doesn't fill a half page of the newspaper. You would get excited if there were a poetry reading at the college, but there hasn't been one in years. That is why I go to NYC every chance I get. You can make a cheap day trip to NYC every month using the local Trailways bus company. They frequently offer special tours to NYC and it is very convenient.
I would caution you to beware of flooding though. Flood insurance is going up. Now that NYC is experiencing some major flooding, there may be a shift in population because its becoming a big issue.
You ask how people make ends meet in a small town that has lost its industries? For those who don't move on, they make do with what's available. Because there is no big demand for housing, rents are usually cheap and the state and county may provide subsidized housing units. Read the thread "Bad Neighborhoods in Coal Country Towns."
Some residents find low wage work in service industries or commerce, some work for local or state government, some commute long distances in order to work at decent paying jobs and some find a way to get on S.S. disability.
Then there are some very nice smaller towns in PA that are still loaded with industry, like Warren and Saint Marys in northwest PA. But they are far, far away from NYC and you'll need a car to go there.
I typed a whole response and city-data ate it. I suggested trying Bethlehem in the Lehigh Valley, which is somewhat walkable, though you'd still need a car for things like groceries. And also small towns on the SEPTA lines into Philly.
I typed a whole response and city-data ate it. I suggested trying Bethlehem in the Lehigh Valley, which is somewhat walkable, though you'd still need a car for things like groceries. And also small towns on the SEPTA lines into Philly.
Sorry about that. I know the feeling, hate it when it happens.
It's basically a tourism economy. No industry to speak of, no corporate HQ, no factories. There is a UPS distribution center, a regional hospital, lots of big-box stores, and that's about it. In the Lehigh Valley you have legitimate corporate HQ and industry -- Olympus, concrete plant, factories, airport etc. Notsomuch up here.
We do have ski resorts, the national park, lots of lodging and tourism activities. So lots of people are associated with that type of service sector job. Which pay, as you might guess, minimum wage or barely above it.
Therefore, thousands of people move here and continue working in NJ or NY -- it's just impossible to make a living and support a family up here on minimum-wage jobs.
Cost of living is somewhat cheaper here, but looks can be deceptive. You pay a lot more to get around -- everything is farther away. You pay high property tax in some areas -- granted, not as much as northern NJ, but it's not a bargain in a lot of places anymore. You pay higher gas and food costs and you pay for things like water, sewer and garbage pickup. Your heating choices are usually oil or electric -- no gas lines run through the area so gas heat isn't an option. That gets very expensive, especially if you live in an older home with substandard insulation (and most built earlier than the late '90s are substandard, as there was no building code up here.
Schools are not great. Shopping is adequate, but there is only one mall and it's pretty sparse. One movie theater, with a couple of small outliers. An amateur playhouse, a concert hall downtown that brings in some music shows of the third-tier variety. And that's pretty much it for culture.
Lots to do outdoors, however. Can't be beat.
HTH
I think this is a really solid summary of the job/work situation in NEPA, just from my limited knowledge as a new resident.
In terms of the cost of living--I think it's true you will pay more for gas because you have to drive more, but the gas prices are low compared to NYC. Food prices are about 30% lower than what we paid in Brooklyn, and if you shop at Target or Walmart, they're even lower. Our cable/wifi is more expensive, but that's because there is only one company in our community and no competition (that's not true for all of NEPA.) We have both electric baseboards + propane fireplace in our home and I think the costs are reasonable. Property taxes are high but nothing like NJ/NYC, and the income tax is much lower. So, the misc living expenses aren't as much of a bargain as they may seem, but the cheap housing makes up for it if you can find the right home. We were blessed to find a wonderful older house that didn't need any work for a really low price.
In short, I think the inexpensive housing makes NEPA a good bargain IF you don't have to drive into the city everyday for work. My husband and I go once or twice a week in the off-hours and work from home otherwise, so living in PA is real money saver for us. I think NEPA will become a prime area for others like us over the course of the next decade or so as more and more people are able to tele-commute at least part of the time. Work in a place where salaries are among the highest in the country, live in a place where home prices are among the lowest in the country=a pretty amazing deal.
What industry are you in?
Also...if you are looking for a walkable area...I don't think you're going to find what you want in NEPA. You NEED to have a car out here. If you want a cute little small town where you can walk to everything...maybe Westchester County or someplace like that in NY, or Montclair in NJ, where you'll pay 5 times as much. I can't imagine living in NEPA without a car.
I need to step in here and assure those who may not have heard that one can, indeed, live in NEPA without a car. Many do. It is difficult to imagine living in the gated communities of the Poconos without a car, but there is a lot more to NEPA than the Poconos.
I live in Forty Fort. Small town, tree-lined streets, served by a bus which passes directly by a couple of supermarkets only two miles away. Kingston a couple of blocks to the south and Wyoming, Exeter, West Wyoming, West Pittston are all a couple of miles north - along that self-same bus route.
The bus also crosses the Susquehanna River and deposits you in Wilkes-Barre in a matter of 20 minutes, (depending on where you board)
I have a car, and I use it to go to the market, the pharmacy, the library, all of which, if one is a dedicated walker, can be reached on foot but are served by the bus. And walking in most of our small towns is made easier by the existence of sidewalks. Sidewalks.
Scranton, (about 32 minutes from my house by car) is also in NEPA. Also has bus service. Also amenities that are walkable depending on which section of the city you choose.
Since the OP doesn't seem to be too attached to the gotta-be-close-to-The-City mentality, I would suggest that there are other areas that can offer pleasant surroundings at a much cheaper cost than NY/NJ.
In the general area, which in addition to the buses also has taxicab service, there is an arena with an AHL ice hockey team and special events like concerts and circuses; a baseball stadium with a Yankees minor league team; a gambling casino/racetrack; several community theater groups (including one of the oldest in existence in the nation).
Colleges and universities abound; several large hospitals (I had open-heart surgery at one of them); and lots of history in the area if one is interested in wars, massacres, Native Americans, and settlers who worked to carve some previously-uncharted wilderness into a livable habitat.
Now we did have one former resident who came here from "away" but despite being deliriously happy here for a time, decided to seek ever-greener pastures. I feel certain that some people will never adapt to the life-style that they had when they lived in an area that offered 24/7 living. But it doesn't hurt to try.
My family - sons, wives, children - live in the area. All are employed, including the wives. No minimum wage jobs. Systems analyst; Physical Therapist; Firefighter; Administrative Asst; Food distribution; real estate; teacher, and so on. But there isn't much work here without some sort of specialized training/education. Not to say no jobs, just not a lot of high-paying jobs. When I was in the work-force, I was never without a job.
I'm sorry to be so windy, but I do get a bit nettled when people fail to recognize that there is life outside of the gates.
I need to step in here and assure those who may not have heard that one can, indeed, live in NEPA without a car. Many do. It is difficult to imagine living in the gated communities of the Poconos without a car, but there is a lot more to NEPA than the Poconos.
I live in Forty Fort. Small town, tree-lined streets, served by a bus which passes directly by a couple of supermarkets only two miles away. Kingston a couple of blocks to the south and Wyoming, Exeter, West Wyoming, West Pittston are all a couple of miles north - along that self-same bus route.
The bus also crosses the Susquehanna River and deposits you in Wilkes-Barre in a matter of 20 minutes, (depending on where you board)
I have a car, and I use it to go to the market, the pharmacy, the library, all of which, if one is a dedicated walker, can be reached on foot but are served by the bus. And walking in most of our small towns is made easier by the existence of sidewalks. Sidewalks.
Scranton, (about 32 minutes from my house by car) is also in NEPA. Also has bus service. Also amenities that are walkable depending on which section of the city you choose.
Since the OP doesn't seem to be too attached to the gotta-be-close-to-The-City mentality, I would suggest that there are other areas that can offer pleasant surroundings at a much cheaper cost than NY/NJ.
In the general area, which in addition to the buses also has taxicab service, there is an arena with an AHL ice hockey team and special events like concerts and circuses; a baseball stadium with a Yankees minor league team; a gambling casino/racetrack; several community theater groups (including one of the oldest in existence in the nation).
Colleges and universities abound; several large hospitals (I had open-heart surgery at one of them); and lots of history in the area if one is interested in wars, massacres, Native Americans, and settlers who worked to carve some previously-uncharted wilderness into a livable habitat.
Now we did have one former resident who came here from "away" but despite being deliriously happy here for a time, decided to seek ever-greener pastures. I feel certain that some people will never adapt to the life-style that they had when they lived in an area that offered 24/7 living. But it doesn't hurt to try.
My family - sons, wives, children - live in the area. All are employed, including the wives. No minimum wage jobs. Systems analyst; Physical Therapist; Firefighter; Administrative Asst; Food distribution; real estate; teacher, and so on. But there isn't much work here without some sort of specialized training/education. Not to say no jobs, just not a lot of high-paying jobs. When I was in the work-force, I was never without a job.
I'm sorry to be so windy, but I do get a bit nettled when people fail to recognize that there is life outside of the gates.
Great post. Yeah, I have grown out of the "must be near the city" mentality. I don't even use the advantage as I go out less and less each time. Once you hit your 30s, things start to change on the nightlife bit. And, it's not as if it were impossible to come to the big city when really necessary but in an age of paperless offices and ever increasing telecommuting, there is no real reason to be "in the city" unless you have family in it, close ties, or an amazingly good job.
My qualifications are as follows: Undergrad Math degree. Graduate degree in Law (but this isn't an American degree since I studied abroad for this). So, really, the only degree I would mention here is my Math degree, which is from an American Ivy League uni. I haven't had any Math related jobs ever though.
Right now Im working as a Paralegal (to pay my bills basically) but am looking to move to greener pastures. I'd be fine with food distribution jobs, teaching...just as long as I can "live" in a decent place and not starve. Not asking for luxuries of any kind.
I'm definitely interested in History and antiques as well. I love the old homes in the area.
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Heating oil is definitely a major expense and I expect to receive several large bills this winter.
