Nova gets more for roads than it gives? (Richmond Times Dispatch Article) (Virginia Beach: beach, capita)

[brooklynborndad]

Some actual data from a loudon county gov doc

Table 3-1: Bicycle Commuting and Walk-to-Work Rates
Source: U.S. Census 2000 (Journey to Work)

US average 2.9%

VA statewide, 2.3%

Loudoun 1.2%

Fairfax 1.3%

Arlington 5.6%

Unfortunately there is no comparable data for non work trips.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Some actual data from a loudon county gov doc

Table 3-1: Bicycle Commuting and Walk-to-Work Rates
Source: U.S. Census 2000 (Journey to Work)

US average 2.9%

VA statewide, 2.3%

Loudoun 1.2%

Fairfax 1.3%

Arlington 5.6%

Unfortunately there is no comparable data for non work trips.

Well, this is a point I agree with. While I do see a lot of pedestrians, most of them seem to be in exercise clothes, going for a stroll, or walking to the store. I don't know very many who walk to work.

How cool that Arlington's percentage was almost twice the national average back in 2000. I wonder what the percentage was in the 2010 census? Did we get more walkers or less in the past ten years? I'm betting we got even more. After all we are rated the fittest metro area in the US right now and I think a lot of that has to do with people walking.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

i said typical suburban areas. For reasons I made clear, and which I would think many here would agree with, I do not consider those to be typical suburban areas (though they are not planned communities)

I guess this is another topic on which we will have to agree to disagree. So if I understand your POV, planned communities aren't the typical suburban area here, and in addition Vienna, Falls Church, Fairfax City, Rosslyn, and Clarendon also are not typical Nova suburban areas. Interesting. It's cool if you think something else is typical, but out of curiosity, if these areas aren't typical of what you find in Nova, what areas do you think represent the typical Nova suburb?

The way I see it, those communities make up at least 60-70% of the population in Nova, maybe more, so they do represent the typical Nova suburb. They certainly make up the vast majority of the communities discussed on this forum. But everyone has different opinion and it's cool if you have a different idea of what represents typical Nova.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Caladium

I guess this is another topic on which we will have to agree to disagree. So if I understand your POV, planned communities aren't the typical suburban area here, and in addition Vienna, Falls Church, Fairfax City, Rosslyn, and Clarendon also are not typical Nova suburban areas. Interesting. It's cool if you think something else is typical, but out of curiosity, if these areas aren't typical of what you find in Nova, what areas do you think represent the typical Nova suburb?

The way I see it, those communities make up at least 60-70% of the population in Nova, maybe more, so they do represent the typical Nova suburb. They certainly make up the vast majority of the communities discussed on this forum. But everyone has different opinion and it's cool if you have a different idea of what represents typical Nova.

Arlington isnt suburban. Arlington is city, that happens to be in a legally seperate jurisdiction from the center city. Yes I am sure you can find dictionary definitions that would call it a suburb anyway. I do not think my usage is idiosyncratic though.

Lets take Fairfax county/Ffx City/Falls Church (i will ignore the legal distinctions among these jurisdictions, I will spot you that one). Lets ignore the differences between old town Fairfax and other parts of FFX city. on one side we have FFX city, falls church, Vienna town (lots of areas THERE with few pedestrians, I can attest from personal experience, but I will spot you THAT one too) Herndon (ditto) plus our major planned communities - Reston and Kingstowne and Fair Lakes.


versus - Annandale - from landmark to the FFX city line. Springfield, west springfield, north springfield. Burke (technically also a planned community, but I seldom see walkers on the main drags there). parts of "falls church" in the county. The whole area south of alexandria (other than kingstowne). Mclean. Great falls. Oakton. Fairfax station. centerville. Chantilly.


I think its probably the case that in FFX county/fairfax city/falls church over 50% of the population lives in areas that were built after 1945, are not in planned communities, and are what I have in mind as "typical" suburban. And a much larger % of the land area, because the typical suburban areas are less dense, on average.

IF the pct in typical suburban is less than 50% (which again, I doubt) it still the single most common development style - on the other side you have to add together older traditional developments in with reston and the reston wannabes, despite those having very different charesterics, charecteristis relevant to walking (my strong sense is that the planned communities while they have more walking than the "typical" post war suburbs, a very high percent of that is recreation walking, compared to the prewar communities)

Now Loudoun may well have a much higher percent of the population in planned communities than Fairfax. That makes sense given the trends at the time it was developed. But if we are going to add Loudoun into the mix, I dont see why we wouldnt add PWC and Stafford, and I think the percentage in "typical" suburbs in those counties is even higher than for Fairfax.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Caladium

They certainly make up the vast majority of the communities discussed on this forum.

at least in part because so many people come to the forum scratching their heads looking for dense walkable. Either cause posters on the net are often younger or cause you dont need to come here to find "typical" suburban developments so much, realtors lead you to them.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Caladium

How cool that Arlington's percentage was almost twice the national average back in 2000.

and note, thats for the entire journey to work. Does not include walking to a metro station to go work. I think it underestimates how much Arlington stands out in non-recreational walking.

I found another study on walking and development. It found that in "walkable areas" there was MUCH more non recreational walking, but only slightly more recreational walking (as a percent of the population)

So in nonwalkable areas (and I dont know how Planned communities were assigned) you get say 2% of the population that walks recreationally. In a denser, better laid out area you get slightly more than 2% that walks recreationally (which will still be more people passing you on the sidewalk, cause the area is denser) PLUS you get a LOT more people walking for commuting, errands, etc.


A good visual metric to use would be to compare the number of pedestrians that go by to the number of cars that go by.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Arlington isnt suburban. Arlington is city, that happens to be in a legally seperate jurisdiction from the center city. Yes I am sure you can find dictionary definitions that would call it a suburb anyway. I do not think my usage is idiosyncratic though.

Interesting definition. I can see your logic, although I would like to point out that most suburbs are legally separated from the cities they surround. They're still suburbs, none the less. You're right that different opinions can be found in dictionaries, as well as from the US government, which categorizes all of the communities in Fairfax, Arlington, Loudoun and Prince William counties as either suburbs or exurbs of Washington DC.

This study done by Brookings Institution has a lot of information on how the census defines suburban and exurban Washington DC based on population density, population growth, and commuting patterns. All of the communities in northern Virginia are categorized as suburbs or exurbs.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Fil...17_exurbia.pdf

By the way, here's a thread you might find interesting.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/north...line-nova.html

[Caladium]

It's interesting to see how different people view this area.

So.... do the suburbs of northern VA have few pedestrians or many pedestrians? The crux of both arguments is personal experience, so I guess we'll never really have a definitive answer. Different people have different opinions, although it sounds like it may be fair to assume that there are more pedestrians in my area (along the Rt. 7 corridor) than in the communities along the LRT corridor.

It's possible that I'm more aware of fellow walkers because I walk to work--in other words since I spend at least an hour on sidewalks every day, I'm more likely to see other people out walking than someone who drives down the same road in 2 minutes. Or, maybe we just live in two different parts of Nova and have two different personal experiences.

Bottom line--since all of this comes down to personal experience, it makes sense that people would have different opinions.

We return to Agree to Disagree.

Meanwhile, back to the issue of weeds vs. pedestrians (which is how we got sidetracked onto this whole "are there few or many pedestrians" issue). If the weeds in a particular part of town are bad enough to make it hard to walk, they should be dealt with. They aren't that bad in my part of town--but is there a connection????? Maybe our relative lack of weeds explains why we might have more pedestrians than LRT corridor area. If that's the case, then I change my opinion to let's take care of those LRT weeds so more people will go for walks there. I just wish someone would post a photo of them so we could see how bad the problem has become. It's hard to imagine these weeds since it isn't a problem up in our area--but a photo would go far in getting the problem handled.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Caladium

It's interesting to see how different people view this area.

The crux of both arguments is personal experience, so it makes sense that people would have different opinions.

To sum up, both of us have lived in this area a long time. I've lived here since 1959, and have lived in an assortment of communities in Arlington, Fairfax and Loudoun counties. You've lived here for at least a decade or two (maybe long?) and you live in Annandale (possibly a few other places too). As a result, we both feel our personal experiences are enough to form opinions on this topic--we'll just have to realize that many different opinions can co-exist.

It makes sense that a person who lives in Annandale, would think the communities in the LRT corridor represent the typical Nova suburbs. It sounds like there aren't many walkers down your way, so it makes sense that in your experience, you think there are relatively few pedestrians around here.

Since I currently live in Sterling, and have lived all along the Rt 7 corridor, it makes sense that I think the Route 7 corridor represents the typical Nova suburbs. In my neck of the woods, I see pedestrians all the time--but all that may mean is the areas I've lived in are in a different corridor than the area you live in. Obviously, since I have extensive photo files of pedestrians, I've seen them in other areas I've been to--at the same time you have had personal experience visiting other areas and seen few pedestrians. It all comes down to personal perception. Maybe we visit at different times of the day, maybe we just notice different things.

It's possible that I'm more aware of fellow walkers because I walk to work--in other words since I spend at least an hour on sidewalks every day, I'm more likely to see other people out walking than someone who drives down the same road in 2 minutes. Or, maybe we just live in two different parts of Nova and have two different personal experiences.

Bottom line--since this is nothing but personal experience, it makes sense that people would have different opinions.

We return to Agree to Disagree.

Ive lived in alexandria city, in Kingstowne, and in the area near fairfax circle. I take transit every day, and walk to it - the total walk part of my commute is about 10 minutes in each direction. Plus I walk for recreation, and occasionally for errands.

I think the difference probably lies in what I consider "lots" of walkers.

[Alicia Bradley]

I don't see nearly as many people walking recreationally in 'Old Town' Fairfax as one would expect, given.. well, lots of things - with the possible exception of Friday evenings (that seems to be *the* time to dine out in the handful of restaurants in 'downtown' Fairfax City).