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Cleveland has undergone extreme hardships seen by very few other American cities in the last 50-60 years, and STILL outproduces cities like Columbus, despite all the huge gains in those kinds of cities. And it's not even just by a little. I just think some of you other Ohioans need to show a little respect in this regard.
Actually, you can break it down by categories and all, but the GMP of all 3-Cs is relatively close at between $100 and $112 billion. Cleveland is in the lead, but it's been the slowest growing of the 3 economically through most of the last decade+.
2000-2010 GMP Change by Total in Millions
Cincinnati: +21,928
Cleveland: +17,573
Columbus: +20,792
GMP Difference in 2000 in Millions (Negative is the total below the other)
Cincinnati vs. Cleveland: -7,669
Columbus vs. Cleveland: -14,139
Columbus vs. Cincinnati: -6,470
GMP Difference in 2012
Cincinnati vs. Cleveland: -3,361
Columbus vs. Cleveland: -11,085
Columbus vs. Cincinnati: -7,724
So based on this, Cincinnati should pass up Cleveland as Ohio's largest economy in the next few years, and Columbus is closing the gap as well. Right now, though, they're all fairly close to each other.
I really have nothing against the city itself. It is an OK place to be/visit/live. But, it seems very hard for many of the locals to admit that the city has 2 distinct economic advantages that no other city in the state has: it is the state-wide, tax funded capitol and it has the state-wide, tax funded OSU. These are HUGE economic advantages which come heavily at the expense of NEO taxation as NEO has almost 1/2 (45%) of the state's population. Next in line is the Cin-Day area with about nearly 1/3 (28%). BILLIONS of our tax dollars flow directly into the City of Columbus. BILLIONS of our tax dollars go directly to the Columbus bottom line (more than $12 BILLION between the 2 regions). That is a huge number. Essentially, Columbus has no excuse but to be economically successful as a large portion of its GMP comes directly from the rest of the state.
But all of the 3-Cs have a large chunk of state jobs, not just Columbus. They're all well over 100,000. And other Ohio universities don't receive state money? That OSU has grown into one of the largest universities in the country is not due to that money. I have never bought into the idea that NEO suffers because of Columbus, especially when Columbus was clearly the inferior city for most of its life and is only now reaching economic parity. That's an excuse and nothing more. Cleveland is FAR more responsible for its current state.
I would also love to see actual tax information on what city gets what and where money is actually flowing. I assume you must have that information.
But all of the 3-Cs have a large chunk of state jobs, not just Columbus. They're all well over 100,000. And other Ohio universities don't receive state money? That OSU has grown into one of the largest universities in the country is not due to that money. I have never bought into the idea that NEO suffers because of Columbus, especially when Columbus was clearly the inferior city for most of its life and is only now reaching economic parity. That's an excuse and nothing more. Cleveland is FAR more responsible for its current state.
I would also love to see actual tax information on what city gets what and where money is actually flowing. I assume you must have that information.
If you can't or refuse to see that it's a huge advantage for Columbus on all fronts, there's no point in continuing to discuss it. The only city that benefits from being the capitol and the taxation revenue influx it brings is Columbus. The State of Ohio is its single largest employer followed by the Federal Government and OSU -- ALL are state tax funded either wholly or in part. That's nearly 60,000 jobs. In Cleveland, that same employment sector is less than 6,000. That is an enormous gap. And, given that NEO produces far more in taxation (which is basically the major source of that funding), the flow is clearly in the favor of Columbus. And, that is only the salary portion. Buildings, offices, vehicles, maintenance, local conventions, etc. are all payed for by state taxation. Columbus benefits from all of it while everyone else gets to foot the bill for it.
Also, where do you get that I am somehow blaming Columbus for all of Cleveland's issues? I'm stating that Columbus enjoys a unique advantage by being the capitol city and it comes at the expense of the rest of the state. The lion's share of which is provided by NEO. That's just a basic fact.
OSU (main): Over $500 million in state funding. Over $1 Billion in total tax funding.
CSU: Less than $9 million in state funding. Under $20 million in total tax funding.
But no, that can't possibly be viewed in any way as being lopsided or a tax based advantage in any way... I mean, it's only 50:1.
Last edited by Cleveland_Collector; 03-26-2014 at 03:18 PM..
Actually, you can break it down by categories and all, but the GMP of all 3-Cs is relatively close at between $100 and $112 billion. Cleveland is in the lead, but it's been the slowest growing of the 3 economically through most of the last decade+.
2000-2010 GMP Change by Total in Millions
Cincinnati: +21,928
Cleveland: +17,573
Columbus: +20,792
GMP Difference in 2000 in Millions (Negative is the total below the other)
Cincinnati vs. Cleveland: -7,669
Columbus vs. Cleveland: -14,139
Columbus vs. Cincinnati: -6,470
GMP Difference in 2012
Cincinnati vs. Cleveland: -3,361
Columbus vs. Cleveland: -11,085
Columbus vs. Cincinnati: -7,724
So based on this, Cincinnati should pass up Cleveland as Ohio's largest economy in the next few years, and Columbus is closing the gap as well. Right now, though, they're all fairly close to each other.
You missed my point. Prime example- respond to me saying that Cleveland gets no respect for being so contributing to the state/nation despite decades of decline that could only be bested by a few other cities and STILL has a large economy that STILL beats Columbus and Cincinnati- and the first thing you say is" yeah but Cincinnati and Columbus will pass it soon. When? It's been the best for as long as any of us have been alive. Even if Cincinnati passed Cleveland, well it's about time. It only took 60 years and a massive industrial exodus. Meanwhile, Cbus is propped up by the state. Must be nice. Like I said- little respect for that great contribution. Par for the course.
If you can't or refuse to see that it's a huge advantage for Columbus on all fronts, there's no point in continuing to discuss it. The only city that benefits from being the capitol and the taxation revenue influx it brings is Columbus. The State of Ohio is its single largest employer followed by the Federal Government and OSU -- ALL are state tax funded either wholly or in part. That's nearly 60,000 jobs. In Cleveland, that same employment sector is less than 6,000. That is an enormous gap. And, given that NEO produces far more in taxation (which is basically the major source of that funding), the flow is clearly in the favor of Columbus. And, that is only the salary portion. Buildings, offices, vehicles, maintenance, local conventions, etc. are all payed for by state taxation. Columbus benefits from all of it while everyone else gets to foot the bill for it.
Also, where do you get that I am somehow blaming Columbus for all of Cleveland's issues? I'm stating that Columbus enjoys a unique advantage by being the capitol city and it comes at the expense of the rest of the state. The lion's share of which is provided by NEO. That's just a basic fact.
OSU (main): Over $500 million in state funding. Over $1 Billion in total tax funding.
CSU: Less than $9 million in state funding. Under $20 million in total tax funding.
But no, that can't possibly be viewed in any way as being lopsided or a tax based advantage in any way... I mean, it's only 50:1.
I'm not saying they're not advantages, I'm saying that Columbus is hardly the only Ohio city that benefits from them. See below.
Wrong. Government is NOT Columbus' top employer, and Cleveland has a hell of a lot more government jobs than 6,000.
In January of this year, Ohio had a total of 756,500 government jobs.
Columbus had 164,100, or 21.7% of the total.
Cleveland had 129,600, or 17.1% of the total.
Cincinnati had 127,300, or 16.8% of the total.
Columbus had more government jobs than Cleveland/Cincy, but as a part of the state total, they're not significantly different. You're saying that Cleveland and Cincinnati don't benefit from those government jobs or related infrastructure, yet Columbus somehow has a unique advantage with them, which doesn't make any sense.
OSU is FAR larger than CSU, in economic output, # of students, influence, etc. You don't start comparisons of support based on the false premise that they are equal to begin with and then complain when they're actually treated differently.
You didn't actually provide any tax information on where total state expenditures really go. I'll accept your premise, but you need to actually prove it.
You missed my point. Prime example- respond to me saying that Cleveland gets no respect for being so contributing to the state/nation despite decades of decline that could only be bested by a few other cities and STILL has a large economy that STILL beats Columbus and Cincinnati- and the first thing you say is" yeah but Cincinnati and Columbus will pass it soon. When? It's been the best for as long as any of us have been alive. Even if Cincinnati passed Cleveland, well it's about time. It only took 60 years and a massive industrial exodus. Meanwhile, Cbus is propped up by the state. Must be nice. Like I said- little respect for that great contribution. Par for the course.
I was responding to the idea that Cleveland is far ahead of the other 2 and is currently performing better economically. It's not. Cleveland had a significant head start against the others, so why wouldn't it have been ahead all of this time? You show far more disrespect to the other 2 by disregarding their success relative to Cleveland's slower growth or even decline in some metrics. It's easy to maintain being #1 when you have a 1,000 mile head start. It's far less easy to come from behind and overtake the leader. Columbus was smaller than Dayton and Toledo and Akron at one point and Cincinnati was half Cleveland's size and also went through significant manufacturing and general decline. The disrespect here is not against Cleveland.
But as a previou poster stated facts above , greater cleveland outpaces cbus by over 80 billion. With fewer counties included in the report. Why is it so hard to swallow that columbus(central) ohio will never surpass cleveland(NE) ohio in a hundred yrs. Regarding size, importance,relevance,Transportation,things to do,etc,etc.... People in cbus are finally seeing their city grow into more than just a cowtown with buckeye football But are clueless if they think cbus/central ohio can compete with the other 2 Cs
I was responding to the idea that Cleveland is far ahead of the other 2 and is currently performing better economically. It's not. Cleveland had a significant head start against the others, so why wouldn't it have been ahead all of this time? You show far more disrespect to the other 2 by disregarding their success relative to Cleveland's slower growth or even decline in some metrics. It's easy to maintain being #1 when you have a 1,000 mile head start. It's far less easy to come from behind and overtake the leader. Columbus was smaller than Dayton and Toledo and Akron at one point and Cincinnati was half Cleveland's size and also went through significant manufacturing and general decline. The disrespect here is not against Cleveland.
lol ok man. I'm sorry the other cities still haven't caught up.
By the way, Cinci was founded 1788, Cleveland in 1796. Columbus founded 1812.
1000 mile headstart? Only to someone looking for justification. I don't see how I'm degrading anyone's success by thinking that you should be able to recognize how big an economic producer CLeveland is. Something you never acknowlegde and always swing it back to how awesome Columbus is.
But you're right. Cleveland had a 16 year head start. More than 200 years ago. Listen to yourself. Columbus owes everything to Cleveland and Cincinnati. It wouldn't even exist without the two. You guys never show any understanding of this. And you continue to benefit from Cleveland and Cincinnati by having them pay for all your fancy new stuff.
If you can't or refuse to see that it's a huge advantage for Columbus on all fronts, there's no point in continuing to discuss it. The only city that benefits from being the capitol and the taxation revenue influx it brings is Columbus. The State of Ohio is its single largest employer followed by the Federal Government and OSU -- ALL are state tax funded either wholly or in part. That's nearly 60,000 jobs. In Cleveland, that same employment sector is less than 6,000. That is an enormous gap. And, given that NEO produces far more in taxation (which is basically the major source of that funding), the flow is clearly in the favor of Columbus. And, that is only the salary portion. Buildings, offices, vehicles, maintenance, local conventions, etc. are all payed for by state taxation. Columbus benefits from all of it while everyone else gets to foot the bill for it.
Also, where do you get that I am somehow blaming Columbus for all of Cleveland's issues? I'm stating that Columbus enjoys a unique advantage by being the capitol city and it comes at the expense of the rest of the state. The lion's share of which is provided by NEO. That's just a basic fact.
OSU (main): Over $500 million in state funding. Over $1 Billion in total tax funding.
CSU: Less than $9 million in state funding. Under $20 million in total tax funding.
But no, that can't possibly be viewed in any way as being lopsided or a tax based advantage in any way... I mean, it's only 50:1.
Another article discussing tax money distribution. Almost a 4:1 per capita ratio of Franklin Country to Cuyahoga County. Normally I'd presume it all works out evenly In the end, but articles like these always leave me scratching my head...
I'm not saying they're not advantages, I'm saying that Columbus is hardly the only Ohio city that benefits from them. See below.
Wrong. Government is NOT Columbus' top employer, and Cleveland has a hell of a lot more government jobs than 6,000.
In January of this year, Ohio had a total of 756,500 government jobs.
Columbus had 164,100, or 21.7% of the total.
Cleveland had 129,600, or 17.1% of the total.
Cincinnati had 127,300, or 16.8% of the total.
Columbus had more government jobs than Cleveland/Cincy, but as a part of the state total, they're not significantly different. You're saying that Cleveland and Cincinnati don't benefit from those government jobs or related infrastructure, yet Columbus somehow has a unique advantage with them, which doesn't make any sense.
OSU is FAR larger than CSU, in economic output, # of students, influence, etc. You don't start comparisons of support based on the false premise that they are equal to begin with and then complain when they're actually treated differently.
You didn't actually provide any tax information on where total state expenditures really go. I'll accept your premise, but you need to actually prove it.
Sources?
Last edited by bjimmy24; 03-26-2014 at 09:59 PM..
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