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Old 11-16-2012, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Not at all. Developmentally appropriate behavior is behavior that is appropriate for a child's age.
AS DEFINED BY WHOM???

Quote:
Note that some children will be more or less advanced in their capacity to understand things, so some children will do different things at different ages.
And studies, even by those skeptical of spanking, have demonstrated that spanking does correlate positively with immediate compliance, so evidently that is one of the variables as well as "capacity for understanding."

Quote:
For example, you should not expect children 6 or younger to be able to sit still for long periods. You can certainly work to increase their ability to do this, but you should not *expect* that they can do so. And punishing them for not being able to do so is entirely unproductive.
And why is that? Kayanne's posts seem to indicate the opposite; despite her intentions and despite disapproving of it for other reasons, she admits that the spankings she got did achieve the effect her mother desired.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Like many other posters here, I find it very suspect that these terms and alleged realities are offered by parents who spank and not, say, researchers who have objectively identified kids who respond better to spanking than other methods.
The researchers are not the ones raising the children and they aren't going to be, so their ability, real or imagined, to correctly identify and classify children doesn't mean too much.

One doesn't need to be a mechanic to know whether one's car is operating correctly; one doesn't need to be an electromechanical expert to know whether one's air conditioner is functioning; and one doesn't need to be an expert in psychology to know whether a certain way of disciplining a child is achieving the results one wants.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
12,334 posts, read 20,394,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The researchers are not the ones raising the children and they aren't going to be, so their ability, real or imagined, to correctly identify and classify children doesn't mean too much.

One doesn't need to be a mechanic to know whether one's car is operating correctly; one doesn't need to be an electromechanical expert to know whether one's air conditioner is functioning; and one doesn't need to be an expert in psychology to know whether a certain way of disciplining a child is achieving the results one wants.
I think defining desired results would be the critical component here. When my children were six years old, having them sit still for extended periods of time for no apparent reason by way of violence or threat of violence was never a desired result that crossed my mind. Then again, my desired results are more long term goals, like raising happy, healthy, well adjusted independent persons who won't suffer emotional issues from the abuse they received at the hands of the grown ups.

That you compare parenting to maintenance of inanimate appliances and automobiles is especially telling.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
I think defining desired results would be the critical component here. When my children were six years old, having them sit still for extended periods of time for no apparent reason by way of violence or threat of violence was never a desired result that crossed my mind.
What's an "extended" period of time? It's probably one second longer than you can achieve without resorting to the so-called violence of spanking, or other methods you dislike for reasons of self-congratulation; and that's not by coincidence. It's called lowering standards.

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That you compare parenting to maintenance of inanimate appliances and automobiles is especially telling.
Not for anyone who grasps both the uses and limitations of an analogy.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:04 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,742,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The researchers are not the ones raising the children and they aren't going to be, so their ability, real or imagined, to correctly identify and classify children doesn't mean too much.
Sure glad we didn't say that about forms of punishment that are widely considered "abuse" in this country. After all, many child abusers feel the same way about their methods with their own children (that they are the ones raising them, and they are the ones who know what "works" for their children). While I would not call spanking in and of itself "abuse", one must admit that the parents' claiming "this works and that doesn't" does not set spanking and abuse apart at all. But you see, we have objective evidence from those meddling researchers to confirm that child abuse is indeed harmful... just as we have the evidence to confirm as much about spanking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
One doesn't need to be a mechanic to know whether one's car is operating correctly; one doesn't need to be an electromechanical expert to know whether one's air conditioner is functioning; and one doesn't need to be an expert in psychology to know whether a certain way of disciplining a child is achieving the results one wants.
Very telling, this paragraph. It's like you're admitting that spanking is equal to guesswork, and whatever mistakes made that might do more harm than good is of no concern to the, erm, owner.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:04 AM
 
10,986 posts, read 8,766,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
AS DEFINED BY WHOM???



And studies, even by those skeptical of spanking, have demonstrated that spanking does correlate positively with immediate compliance, so evidently that is one of the variables as well as "capacity for understanding."



And why is that? Kayanne's posts seem to indicate the opposite; despite her intentions and despite disapproving of it for other reasons, she admits that the spankings she got did achieve the effect her mother desired.
What that mother desired for an outcome is not a good outcome to desire. Compliance is one thing I am certain I don't want to engender in my children!
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:52 AM
 
14,985 posts, read 16,068,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
AS DEFINED BY WHOM???



And studies, even by those skeptical of spanking, have demonstrated that spanking does correlate positively with immediate compliance, so evidently that is one of the variables as well as "capacity for understanding."



And why is that? Kayanne's posts seem to indicate the opposite; despite her intentions and despite disapproving of it for other reasons, she admits that the spankings she got did achieve the effect her mother desired.
Immediate compliance is a short term result which is not a good indicator of discipline at all. If a child complies immediately out of fear, it does not teach him why he should comply or when he should comply and when he should not comply.

One example is obedience to authority outside the home. When is it a bad thing to comply with what the authority is asking you to do and when is it a good thing? What will you do when faced with being asked to hurt someone because the *authority* wishes it? What will you do when a law is unfair? Are you willing to protest as those young civil rights protestors did because they knew that the laws were wrong?

In the case of a parent, I do not believe that immediate compliance is necessary except in the face of safety and if you are careful to use no judiciously and to be fair in your normal actions, children do not need to be spanked in order to insure compliance when the parent deems safety to be at issue. It's a matter of trust rather than fear.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Sure glad we didn't say that about forms of punishment that are widely considered "abuse" in this country. After all, many child abusers feel the same way about their methods with their own children (that they are the ones raising them, and they are the ones who know what "works" for their children). While I would not call spanking in and of itself "abuse", one must admit that the parents' claiming "this works and that doesn't" does not set spanking and abuse apart at all. But you see, we have objective evidence from those meddling researchers to confirm that child abuse is indeed harmful... just as we have the evidence to confirm as much about spanking...
Fair point, although it doesn't explain why you distinguish spanking from abuse, since you allege that both are provably harmful.

For myself, I don't rely on the prospect of long-term or permanent harm to say that, for instance, using tasers on children is unacceptable; I merely apply the Golden Rule, and tasers fail the test. Likewise with reasonable spanking; I apply the Golden Rule, and it passes the test.

Quote:
Very telling, this paragraph. It's like you're admitting that spanking is equal to guesswork, and whatever mistakes made that might do more harm than good is of no concern to the, erm, owner.
No, it was merely an observation that a person engaged in raising a child, however unsophisticated he or she may be, can be relied on to know whether their child is behaving or not. It's not that complicated. A person removed from the situation, or dealing only with it in theory, may say a child doesn't fit into any of their "categories", but that's not of much practical importance. Their categories, you know, include a lot of speculation or "guesswork" as well.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
What that mother desired for an outcome is not a good outcome to desire. Compliance is one thing I am certain I don't want to engender in my children!
So be it. Not everyone shares your philosophy.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 10,818,727 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Immediate compliance is a short term result which is not a good indicator of discipline at all. If a child complies immediately out of fear, it does not teach him why he should comply or when he should comply and when he should not comply.
Complying out of fear is much better than not complying at all for however long it may take for them to absorb the long-range reasons. (Some people never do understand, in a philosophical way, why they should obey any rules.)

Quote:
One example is obedience to authority outside the home. When is it a bad thing to comply with what the authority is asking you to do and when is it a good thing? What will you do when faced with being asked to hurt someone because the *authority* wishes it? What will you do when a law is unfair? Are you willing to protest as those young civil rights protestors did because they knew that the laws were wrong?
I don't believe that proper civil disobedience to a governmental authority--in defense of a higher moral authority--is advanced by allowing children to grow wild like weeds and never encounter or experience authority. That sort of parenting may produce a rebellious nihilist, but it does not produce a Martin Luther King.
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