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But I hope, as some posters have suggested, that out upcoming vacation might give us an opportunity for some man-to-man talks about this.
You might want to try making time to go on a one on one car ride. I found car rides and talks go well. It is not like someone can run out of the room and slam the door, not like someone can walk into the room and interrupt.
When I was 13 my parents sent me to a new school. Within a few months I knew I was with the wrong crowd of kids. I prayed every night that we would move (my parents were looking for a place in the country). I got my wish and was able to start over again. I always told my sons if they felt they were in the wrong crowd we could get them into another school. It is not that easy as a young kid to just move to another group of friends.
When I was raising teenagers I often thought I now understood when some animals eat their young! It is a tough stage. Keep in mind there are lots of good times, and some very intense moments. Often the intense moments overshadow the good times. We often tell teenagers to stop acting like a baby, then we turn around and tell them they are not adults and they have to do as we tell them. Confusing stage for everyone. Hang in there--they normally turn into really nice adults!
Hogwash. The vast majority of kids misbehave not because they don't feel like valued family members, but because kids have an innate ability to act like jackasses at times. Far better to clamp down at 13, than to try and do so at 16. Young teens are flexing their autonomy, and testing boundaries. All to be expected, but not tolerated when it breaks household, or legal rules. Kids need to know they will be held accountable.
I see nothing wrong with expecting kids to suffer reasonable consequences for dumb decisions. How exactly can a young thief expect empathy when he's caught? At 13, they KNOW it's wrong.
I wasn't talking about empathy for the thief (although a parent should certainly look at underlying reasons that kids act out) I was talking about the thief learning to have empathy for those they are stealing from. It's the only way to have true remorse...to be able to see how your behavior impacts others and and understand how they might feel.
Granted, sometimes kids just do stupid things. Their brains aren't fully developed. Boys especially, because it takes longer for their frontal lobe to develop than girls. At age 13 they actually are at the most risk-taking they ever will be in their lives. But in this case because the OP was sharing the other issues that have been going on in the home (disrespect, etc) it seemed to me that there was more going on than just a kid beign stupid.
For my part, if my teen did something like this out of sheer stupidity and momentary lapse of reason, I would probably choose some kind of community service over grounding. But again, a kid with no remorse isn't a kid who just made a stupid decision. It's a kid who doesn't have a relationship of trust with his parents and who hasn't developed empathy for others. Much bigger problem.
I don't think you were too harsh or hasty. If it were my child I might have started with 1 month the added 6 more when she became mouthy, disrespectful, and environmentally destructive.
I believe shoplifting as a teenager is something most children try. And when caught most feel shame and embarassement and thats enough to curb the problem. Your son does not appear to feel shame and struck out at you and your wife verbally and by destroying your stuff.
I have a few questions: How long has be been sullen and mouthy? Was this the first time or has it been ongoing and perhaps steadily increasing in intensity? What did he steal? If you don't want to name the item then what was the value of the item he was caught stealing? Is this the first time he has been environmentally destructive? Does he have siblings?
Reading your original post I heard a cry for help. You already had your decision made about your son and vacation I think you have bigger concerns as to the underlying cause of his behavior.
You seem to assume that if grounding is used, there isn't any kind of discussion along with it. My kids aren't teens yet but we always discuss what they did wrong, how they could have handled it better, why they should have, then take the iPad away. I think both parts are important.
I sometimes take the iPad away, too. But it's not a punishment. I take it away because they are addictive, they change the way their brains think and the addictive nature creates unhealthy habits that the kids don't like any more than I do. So we talk about these things and think about the long-term implications of spending every waking moment on an iPad. We talk about the addictive nature and what they miss out on by constant use and how we can all see the change in behavior (not handling responsibilities well, not spending enough time working on things that are of more value, i.e. artistic pursuits, spending time with friends and family) and usually we come to the agreement together that electronics just need to go away for a while. The youngest child usually whines about it. The older ones get it and see the value in the decision.
And you know what else, sometimes I just lose my temper and yell at them to get of the d*mn iPads because the house is a mess and I'm tired of cleaning up after everyone while they play games. I'm not any more perfect than anyone else on this thread, but I do keep the lines of communication open and I apologize when I act like an idiot. Because, let's face it, our kids aren't the only ones who make mistakes.
Thanks for your advice. I like what you said about doing community service as a family, I think it might be a good thing for us all to do. My wife and I have always tried to raise our children with empathy, but I admit we haven't always done the best job. This would probably be a good way to model some empathy for them. I don't know about seeing a psychiatrist/psychologist but if his attitude persists we will likely look into it. And yes, I remember all too well how difficult age 13 is from my own adolescence.
And I have already discussed stealing with my son (although he was mouthy about it and wouldn't really talk about it with me), and I have focused on how stealing is wrong and hurts the person who is stolen from rather than on how it embarrassed his mother and I. But I hope, as some posters have suggested, that out upcoming vacation might give us an opportunity for some man-to-man talks about this.
Thanks again to everyone who has responded. This is a difficult situation for our family, and it is the first time we have had to deal with anything as serious as shoplifting, so your advice is appreciated. I have also seen that we were perhaps to hasty and harsh at first.
You know what? They don't come with a manual. Every single parent has been a jerk or made a bad decision or responded emotionally or in anger at one time or another. Every single one of us. Don't beat yourself up about it. But do make sure your kids know when you're not sure what you should do and ask them to be patient with you because (in the case of your oldest) this is the first time you have raised children. Make sure they know that if they think you are being unfair that they can come to you and you will listen and consider their position. And then don't make a knee-jerk response to their position. Take some time to think about it, re-evaluate your directives and change them if you think maybe you over-reacted. Or if you don't think you over-reacted, explain to your child why you made the decision you did, why you think it's a good decision. I also think it's really important to get the child's opinion on disciplinary matters. Why did they do what they did? Do they understand the natural consequences of it? In my own home, I often find that the reasons they do inappropriate things is not because they wanted to do something bad, but because they have formed a bad habit, either of thought or action. They help come up with ways to break habits that they agree are bad for them and those around them. The kids are usually harsher than I would be so I have to help them set goals that are more realistic. But they feel empowered by participating in their growth and goal setting.
Because you mentioned the Bible earlier, I will also say... just remember that G-d changed his mind an awful lot of times in the Bible. He warned over and over again about consequences but then kept forgiving. Forgiving your child for their mistakes is okay. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I think I might have judged too harshly so I'm reducing the sentence." Just my .02 for FWIW.
If you do decide to do some community service, try to pick an area where what you are doing is genuinely affecting the lives of others. Maybe helping disabled children or the elderly where your son can SEE the good consequences of his actions on people and the necessity of them. (So not something like picking up trash.) it'll help him to see the bad consequences of his actions in other situations.
Take him on vacation and when you get back, you better get him into sports. ANY sport would be good for him. He needs to be active out of school, so he doesn't have time to hang around losers. If sports don't work, maybe personal trainer and weightlifting? He needs to fill his time up and fast. If he doesn't have skills for any sports, look at the odd ones like crew. Crew can't be done by little kids much, so 13 is an age they can get involved in it.
Take him on vacation and when you get back, you better get him into sports. ANY sport would be good for him. He needs to be active out of school, so he doesn't have time to hang around losers. If sports don't work, maybe personal trainer and weightlifting? He needs to fill his time up and fast. If he doesn't have skills for any sports, look at the odd ones like crew. Crew can't be done by little kids much, so 13 is an age they can get involved in it.
Enjoy the vacation. Put it all away for a bit.
This is an interesting thought.
OP, is your son already involved in sports?
It has been proven that sports participation helps reduce negative risk-taking behavior in teens because they already are taking so many personal risks by participating. Simply by putting themselves out there on a team in front of their peers and trying a new skill is a risk, and it has a way of getting it out of their systems so they don't have to resort to stuff like shoplifting.
Not taking him on vacation seems very mean-spirited -- I mean, who on earth do you hate enough right now to inflict your wayward son on them for a week while you go on vacation?
There's this option: "This is a family vacation. You are part of the family. But since you are grounded, that means no vacation for ANY of us, because we can't take you with us, and you are too out of control to trust you with anyone else for a week."
Ruin a vacation for the entire family? THAT would get his attention. And during spring break, he can spend the entire week doing long, boring chores around the house with one parent or the other, while the other takes the other kids in the family for treats around your hometown.
Another option would be to have the parents switch off -- one go to Galveston for the first half of the week, the other go down for the second half of the week, while the other stays at home with Darling Dudley. That way the rest of the family gets to go, the parents aren't totally cheated out of a vacation, and the little delinquent has to sit it out.
And personally, no, I don't think two months is too long. I'd have made it until the end of the school year. Thieves are scraping bottom on my personal hierarchy.
The sports angle is a good idea. If anything, some sort of cardio and strength training program (with attainable goals and rewards) to manage anger and overwhelm is a really great start. That's why I started running and strength training (I have two special needs boys which can be exhausting and emotionally draining.)
As for the stealing, one thing that we have worked on in our home is the value of a dollar. We create opportunities for our kids to earn money (not a lot, but a few bucks here and there), and then will take them shopping. And if they lose or break their electronics (one kindle and one ipod so far), we don't replace it. They have to make money to purchase it themselves. Perhaps your son would benefit from learning to save his own money to purchase items, so that it becomes more clear how hard people have to work, and he may begin to realize how it would feel if someone stole from HIM. Especially after he worked hard to buy something. It isn't the same as a store, but I think it's important that they realize all their electronics and "stuff" doesn't just magically grow on trees outside.
We made the mistake of gifting a lot of cool gadgets to our kids when they were younger (and, because we are techies ourselves and it helped when we needed a break), and so we had to backtrack and teach them how much things really cost. It worked though - they both saved over $500 each and got good enough grades and test scores for a "grandpa dollar match" and bought themselves really nice laptops. I don't even have a laptop!
And to speak a little to your situation with communication and disrespect...the lesson we continue to learn with our kids is that we need to really balance electronic time with family time. It's way too easy to allow them to retreat, and pretty soon you are no longer having conversations and actually talking about life with them. We've been so guilty of this, and I can easily see how a child could begin to go down an unhealthy path and the parents not really know whats going on in their life. The hardest part is coming up with conversation starters/trivia and questions that actually interest them in speaking to us Otherwise, school was "fine." "Nothing" happened at school. They can be gone for eight hours and summarize it just like that....
I sometimes take the iPad away, too. But it's not a punishment. I take it away because they are addictive, they change the way their brains think and the addictive nature creates unhealthy habits that the kids don't like any more than I do. So we talk about these things and think about the long-term implications of spending every waking moment on an iPad. We talk about the addictive nature and what they miss out on by constant use and how we can all see the change in behavior (not handling responsibilities well, not spending enough time working on things that are of more value, i.e. artistic pursuits, spending time with friends and family) and usually we come to the agreement together that electronics just need to go away for a while. The youngest child usually whines about it. The older ones get it and see the value in the decision.
And you know what else, sometimes I just lose my temper and yell at them to get of the d*mn iPads because the house is a mess and I'm tired of cleaning up after everyone while they play games. I'm not any more perfect than anyone else on this thread, but I do keep the lines of communication open and I apologize when I act like an idiot. Because, let's face it, our kids aren't the only ones who make mistakes.
Are you really saying that you never punish your kids? Talking is great. They need consequences too. Kids' brains aren't able to fully understand an abstract concept like, if you act like an jerk now, you'll mess up the rest of your life. They need immediate consequences.
I think grounding alone treats the symptom, not the "illness," if you will. My parents spent a lot of time grounding me, and no time trying to figure out what the reason for my behavior actually was. So I understand what you are saying, but for the majority of kids, discussion only with no consequences will not work.
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Otherwise, school was "fine." "Nothing" happened at school. They can be gone for eight hours and summarize it just like that....
