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I think that many forms of corporal punishment for disciplining kids are abusive, wrong, and just don't accomplish the correct result. The only exception I believe in is very, very limited. When they are little toddlers, they have the ability to run but not yet the ability to really engage in much discussion about anything, sometimes getting through to them with time outs or other methods is just pointless. This peaks around age 3, I believe. My kids, adorable and adored as they were, they were little savages at age 3 if left to their own devices. If my child is going to put himself in danger because he's giggling and running into the street, and does not care if I put him in time out, and the only way to establish that I AM the adult here and you DO have to listen, is a swat with my hand on his backside, well that's what I was going to do.
We are talking about a startling swat on a diapered butt. Mostly to demand attention. Which very quickly transitions to "Do you need a spanking?" and then away from anything physical by the time they are like 5 or so. Once they're old enough to reason with, systems of rewards and redirection and revoking privileges worked better anyways.
Yes exactly, I think this is the level of spanking is appropriate. But always as a last resort after multiple warnings are given and time outs that did not work. I have a strong willed son who was always big for his age. He absolutely ignored time outs, did not want to sit in the chair, stand on the corner. I tried holding him there as is often recommended but then I found that I actually have to struggle with him when he became older than three. I think one or two firm spanks on the butt with open palm are quicker and more effective than prolonged struggles with the time out. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they did not but it is a tool that we use occasionally. This is perfectly legal in most of the US, btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I have found that people who hit kids with belts or other objects, are not flexible enough in their thinking to believe that there is any other way to discipline a kid's behavior, so as the kid gets older and that swat isn't effective anymore, they escalate the violence to more impactful (and abusive) measures. I recall how it felt the last time I got a serious spanking from my father when I was like...6 or 7 or something... I don't remember what I did. I do remember sobbing in my room, absolutely convinced that no one loved me. I don't think that was the lesson he was trying to teach, but it's the one I learned at the time and it's probably encoded some issues I've struggled with my whole life. So I definitely do not recommend beating on one's child until they cry as a means to try and teach them anything. At best it only teaches them to blindly obey whatever scares them and only respect threats and force. Rather than doing good in life because it's right, they only do good to avoid punishment. Not necessarily the best mindset to have.
I agree, the point of spanking at this day and age is to show seriously misbehaving kids that they are really out of line. And that they should control their behavior. There is no reason to cause serious pain hitting with an implement as that probably approaches abuse on some circumstances.
I never really spanked my kids but they did get an occasional ...one open hand whack.....on the butt.
Key word........"one"........." butt"
EXAMPLE......refusing to pick up their toys and trying to talk back.
I would take their shoulders, turn them in the direction of the task and administer the ONE whack as I said........" get started"
Exactly. I wasn't even into spanking to punish, and it was also not done in anger. The point was to put an abrupt and immediate halt to any kind of a power struggle that was going on in that moment. To bring an out-of-control little kid under control. And the thing about that, is that at these ages, being "out of control" could very well involve them putting themselves in actual danger. I'm not on some power trip for my own ego's sake with this.
When my younger son was small, 3-4ish I'd say, he was fearless, except for the concept of getting a spanking. He thought that time outs were a game, and there was no reasoning with him. I mentioned giggling and running into the street for a reason, in my other post. I had to stop him from that more than once. I tried to explain he could get hit by a car, hurt, killed, squished like a bug, and his answer? "I can run faster than the car." But a spanking? He did not want that. If I simply told him he'd get one if he went near the street, then he would not run into the street.
By age 5 he knew that he could not run faster than a car.
I believe that being an effective parent (not that I've always been the greatest myself, but I've done my best) involves understanding what works, what effects you are getting, and being able to adopt new methods at different stages.
Exactly. I wasn't even into spanking to punish, and it was also not done in anger. The point was to put an abrupt and immediate halt to any kind of a power struggle that was going on in that moment. To bring an out-of-control little kid under control. And the thing about that, is that at these ages, being "out of control" could very well involve them putting themselves in actual danger. I'm not on some power trip for my own ego's sake with this.
When my younger son was small, 3-4ish I'd say, he was fearless, except for the concept of getting a spanking. He thought that time outs were a game, and there was no reasoning with him. I mentioned giggling and running into the street for a reason, in my other post. I had to stop him from that more than once. I tried to explain he could get hit by a car, hurt, killed, squished like a bug, and his answer? "I can run faster than the car." But a spanking? He did not want that. If I simply told him he'd get one if he went near the street, then he would not run into the street.
By age 5 he knew that he could not run faster than a car.
I believe that being an effective parent (not that I've always been the greatest myself, but I've done my best) involves understanding what works, what effects you are getting, and being able to adopt new methods at different stages.
Interestingly, there was a study done quite a while ago (1987), that showed that spanking was NOT effective for running into the street.
In the Summer 1987 issue of _Children_ magazine,
Dr. Dennis Embry writes:
"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)
"Actual observation of parents and children shows that spanking, scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe Playing.
The underlying principles of the program are simple:
1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on the grass or sidewalk."
2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing dangerously.
3. Praise your child for safe play.
"These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for safe play, the children stopped going into the street.
Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D.
University of Kansas
Lawrence Kansas"
Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don't eat out of the catfood dish!" "Don't jump on furniture!" "Don't go into the street!" the toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture! Go into the street!"
Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of "catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help them immeasurably on their developmental journey.
Also, note that while the spanking may stop the behavior *in the moment,* it does not prevent the behavior when the parent is not around so when the child is a bit older, they may be playing alone at the park and run out into the street despite having been spanked for it when they were younger.
Interestingly, there was a study done quite a while ago (1987), that showed that spanking was NOT effective for running into the street.
In the Summer 1987 issue of _Children_ magazine,
Dr. Dennis Embry writes:
"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)
"Actual observation of parents and children shows that spanking, scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe Playing.
The underlying principles of the program are simple:
1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on the grass or sidewalk."
2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing dangerously.
3. Praise your child for safe play.
"These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for safe play, the children stopped going into the street.
Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D.
University of Kansas
Lawrence Kansas"
Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don't eat out of the catfood dish!" "Don't jump on furniture!" "Don't go into the street!" the toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture! Go into the street!"
Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of "catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help them immeasurably on their developmental journey.
Also, note that while the spanking may stop the behavior *in the moment,* it does not prevent the behavior when the parent is not around so when the child is a bit older, they may be playing alone at the park and run out into the street despite having been spanked for it when they were younger.
I can appreciate that and I generally agree that positive reinforcement works best.
However, I found that this particular kiddo was apt to try everything, including the behaviors that were not rewarded, and I am not going to just ignore my kid running into the street out of principle that the attention seeking aspect is working. With something less dangerous, sure, you might ignore a behavior to discourage it. Though if the child's motivation is something more or other than simply attention seeking you might find they do it anyways.
Not all children are identical. My older son did not have the issue of running into the street. He simply never did that sort of thing. My younger one was a lot more defiant and fearless and generally rascally.
And it's also just one example to illustrate an overall thing, too. The swat was an addendum, a punctuation, to the point that I'm using the "MOM IS VERY SERIOUS RIGHT NOW" voice in a situation where compliance was required for very good reasons. After a while, the voice was enough. And it wasn't long before the swat was easily phased right out, as far as I was concerned. By the time we reach at the end of your post where the child old enough to be unsupervised might just be running into the street, my sons were old enough that spankings were not even threatened any longer and we'd had rational talks and they knew the REASONS that you do not simply run into the street (or certain other dangerous behaviors.)
I also had a parallel case, the household of my brother and sister in law. They had two sons who were a month or so off from being the exact same ages as mine. SIL never spanked, she was a big proponent of time outs, and she was a daycare teacher and then a daycare director. You would really think that she'd be a model of good parenting and best outcomes with her kids.
Such was not the case, however. At ages 10-13, both of her sons still referred to a person's backside as their "bootie hootie" and neither had many peer friends. Of course they really weren't allowed outside despite living in a very nice neighborhood. They lived a couple of blocks from their school and a relative had to drive them each day. One of them developed a severe eating disorder that caused him to rapidly gain a lot of weight and just as rapidly to lose it when he started to refuse food because of people shaming him at school. Both boys sit glued to their computers in the basement day in and day out. One of them is severely phobic about insects. Both are on mental health meds, and neither seems especially well adapted socially. Both of them during their last visit, at various times tried to pull this business of getting physically rough with my boys, and it was all "haha" when they were punching, poking, and ignoring my sons' telling them to stop, but when one of my boys said ENOUGH and punched back (in the arm) they went screaming to their mother. I wish I knew how those boys were today, but I divorced my ex and don't talk to his family anymore, so it's been a few years.
Granted I do NOT link all of this to a "no spanking" philosophy. It is only one anecdote and really doesn't mean a lot, and neither life nor child-rearing happens in a vacuum. I just don't think that every parent who has employed spanking in some fashion is a bad parent or an abusive parent, nor do I believe that every parent who is against it is a good parent, and I'm not sure that going "by the book" and doing everything the experts told you is a guarantee to raising healthy kids. But I also don't think there's ever any call to escalate to a belt or really anything that qualifies as a "beating" or a "whoopin'" on a child. That, to me, is the ugliest aspect of spanking, is when parents don't know where the limits should be and instead escalate it as kids get older, or take it too far in anger.
Interestingly, there was a study done quite a while ago (1987), that showed that spanking was NOT effective for running into the street.
Interestingly, there was a study done that found that High Fructose Corn Syrup is good for people and that drinking Coca Cola is healthier than drinking water. And there was a study that said that women should always used hormone treatments after the menopause. And I am sure there was a study that said that giving anti depressants to teens is a great idea.
So when someone tells me that there is a study that found something Earth shattering I want to laugh...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
In the Summer 1987 issue of _Children_ magazine,
Dr. Dennis Embry writes:
"Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)
"Actual observation of parents and children shows that spanking, scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the street as a near-perfect way to gain parents' attention. "Now there is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe Playing.
The underlying principles of the program are simple:
1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on the grass or sidewalk."
2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing dangerously.
3. Praise your child for safe play.
"These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for safe play, the children stopped going into the street.
Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D.
University of Kansas
Lawrence Kansas"
Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don't eat out of the catfood dish!" "Don't jump on furniture!" "Don't go into the street!" the toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture! Go into the street!"
Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of "catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help them immeasurably on their developmental journey.
Also, note that while the spanking may stop the behavior *in the moment,* it does not prevent the behavior when the parent is not around so when the child is a bit older, they may be playing alone at the park and run out into the street despite having been spanked for it when they were younger.
OK, so barely speaking toddlers don't understand when their parents tell them not to do something. But they understand the concept of safe play based on some rewards? I am a bit skeptical about this great study...
But as I wrote before, spanking should be the last resort punishment after all the verbal warnings have been given. And children should not be spanked multiple times for going to the street. They should spend most of their outdoor time in a playground or park, far from the street..
Interestingly, there was a study done that found that High Fructose Corn Syrup is good for people and that drinking Coca Cola is healthier than drinking water. And there was a study that said that women should always used hormone treatments after the menopause. And I am sure there was a study that said that giving anti depressants to teens is a great idea.
The mounting evidence linking negative long-term outcomes to physical punishment has contributed to a global shift in perceptions of the practice. In Canada, more than 400 organizations have endorsed the Joint Statement on Physical Punishment of Children and Youth.46 A subset of these organizations is listed in Appendix 1 (available at Supplement to Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research | CMAJ). In other countries, legislative reforms have been instituted to better protect children.47 Accompanying these changes has been a growing emphasis on developing models of positive discipline that rely on nonviolent and effective conflict resolution.
Quote:
The Joint Statement on Physical Punishment of Children and Youth finds
The evidence is clear and compelling — physical punishment of children and youth plays no useful role in their upbringing and poses only risks to their development. The conclusion is equally compelling — parents should be strongly encouraged to develop alternative and positive approaches to discipline.46
Effective discipline rests on clear and age-appropriate expectations, effectively communicated within a trusting relationship and a safe environment.57
Key points
Numerous studies have found that physical punishment increases the risk of broad and enduring negative developmental outcomes.
No study has found that physical punishment enhances developmental health.
Most child physical abuse occurs in the context of punishment.
A professional consensus is emerging that parents should be supported in learning nonviolent, effective approaches to discipline.
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