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And there are a lot of parents who go completely overboard too. I know many people whose parents practically bashed their skull in with a baseball bat in the name of "spanking." "Spanking" is just too easy an "excuse" for parents who are going to be abusive anyway. So I don't trust parents to know where to draw the line. There are only a few that can, but the risk is just too high overall and I think it's just easier to find other ways that don't have such a huge risk of crossing the line over into abuse.
I actually support it b/c now these kids can get away w/ everything. I mean damn! Now all it takes is one pissed off kid to make a false rape claim for missing his recess and the teacher is ****ed.
There are so many ways to discipline a child in school or at home by the parents. Corporal punishment seems to be one of the best ways to my opinion, if allowed in this state may tranform a lot of undiscilined children. I may sound silly to most of you, but that is the old fashion way to discipline a child. Can any one compare kids here in terms of good morals to those from countries where corporal punishment is one way to disciplin a child? Persnally, I imagine how deviant I would have be by now if I did not have this kind of discipline both in school and at home. I always feel very bad when I see the way kids of today react towards adults because of indiscipline which is rare in where I come from, because we had this kind of discipline.
Corporal punishment has negetive effect in ones life if not administered correctly. When it becomes the same thing for all the time, it hardens the child and as a result the child grows to be come rebelious, but when done in a good way as some of us had it, it realy shapes the behavior of a child.
Phoenix, Az - Paddling, spanking, swats, whatever it's called, a state education task force has recommended it end in Arizona. Panel chairman Michael Remus of the Phoenix Deer Valley Unified School District said all nine members of the task force agreed on the ban.
Remus said the panel feels paddling is punitive and does not redirect the behavior to something more positive. Arizona is among 20 states that allow school districts to carry out corporal punishment to control children.
Spanking to End in Arizona? (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/azam/Spanking_to_End_in_Arizona - broken link)
Personally - I think corporal punishment in schools should remain an option. How about you?
Having raised two kids without spakings, I'll vote to keep it. I have come to the conclusion I would be having less issues with my daughter now if I'd beat her now and again. Instead, we're paying thousands of dollars in counseling bills.
Kids are out of hand today. You didn't see half the crap you do today back when I was a kid. We knew we were dead if mom or dad caught us stepping out of line. We also knew the teachers could paddle us if we stepped out of line. I think there's something to be said for a healthy fear of punishment.
Having raised two kids without spakings, I'll vote to keep it. I have come to the conclusion I would be having less issues with my daughter now if I'd beat her now and again. Instead, we're paying thousands of dollars in counseling bills.
Kids are out of hand today. You didn't see half the crap you do today back when I was a kid. We knew we were dead if mom or dad caught us stepping out of line. We also knew the teachers could paddle us if we stepped out of line. I think there's something to be said for a healthy fear of punishment.
I can understand what you're saying too and I cringe when I see kids walking all over their parents. But what about things like taking away privileges, assigning more chores, grounding, etc.? I think a lot of the best punishments are the most logical ones, ones that reflect real-life consequences, because kids can make the connection more easily, learn, and change for the better.
I can understand what you're saying too and I cringe when I see kids walking all over their parents. But what about things like taking away privileges, assigning more chores, grounding, etc.? I think a lot of the best punishments are the most logical ones, ones that reflect real-life consequences, because kids can make the connection more easily, learn, and change for the better.
They don't work. She doesn't do the chores. Ground her??? She'll walk out the front door anyway and show up home when she darned well pleases. The only thing that has any impact at all is taking away her cell phone and internet time at the same time, but then I have no way of contacting her if she walks out the front door which she will do grounded or not, which she will do, after all, what worse thing can happen? Most of the time she'd rather just mope in her room anyway after slamming the door off of it's hinges.
The problem with grounding is it only works if the kid will actually stay in the house and cares they're grounded. I haven't found the magic bullet to get her to do chores. The only time I can is if she's been promised a shopping trip or something (say she needs new shoes), then I can tell her, "We'll leave when x, y and z are done". I actually wish she wanted a drivers license because that would give me something else to ground her from...providing I hide the keys....
I've come to the conclusion that the time outs and positive reinforcements I used on her were useless. Whoever came up with this, obviously, wasn't raising a kid who didn't want to conform. She doesn't care if her father and I approve of her and she doesn't care if her school mates approve of her. She just raises the drama level if she's not getting the attention she craves. Sadly, not getting attention at school, raises drama at home.
We're, seriously, thinking of spending $25,000 on a boot camp for her but I'm not convinced that would work. I think once she got back home, we'd have the same problems we're having now. What this girl needs is a healthy fear of her parents. She doesn't have it, and at 15, I don't think we're going to be instilling it any time soon.
If I had a do over, I would have beaten her enough that she feared what I might do next, like my mom did!!! I KNEW better than to not accept a punishment or do a chore. My daughter doesn't fear the punishments, logical or not and it's too late for beatings. She's old enough to turn us in now and the state would not have our backside. Because we didnt', we're spending $118/hour on a therapist. A few beatings (just enough so she'd know we'd do it) would have been much cheaper both financially and emotionally. Sadly, I think she will pay a higher emotional price than we will. If I had it to do again, I would not hesitate to pull a belt out of the closet like my mom did!!!!
I admit it. I created a monster. One that, sadly, could have been nipped in the bud with a few spankings early on but I was stupid and listened to the idiots out there telling me that it was wrong. I followed the rules. I let her learn by natural consequences, but she decided the consequences were worth the crime. I tried positive reinforcement...didn't work. And groundings and taking away privlidges only work if the kid in question cares and will actually stay grounded. I can ground her sister and it works because her younger sister has an active social life and relies on me for rides. It doesn't work if I gound her. She either has nothing going on in her life and doesn't care that she's grounded or just walks out the front door if there is something going on in her life. After all, what more can happen once she's been grounded? Another grounding she ignores?
I've come to the conclusion that parents have to have leverage or have instilled a healthy fear in their kids. In the district where I teach (a wealthy community), grounding works very well because the kids have so much provided by their parents to get grounded from. They are used to a life of privlidge and don't like it when those privilidges are taken away. We don't live that life. If a shopping trip to the mall were a regular occurance, I could say "We'll leave when your homework is done and you do x, y, and z" but it's not for us. If she wanted the car to go to a party on Friday, I'd have some leverage but she doesn't care about parties or getting a drivers license. Once a year, she goes to a school dance and that's Homecomming so I have leverage for about two weeks because of her needing a dress and money for the limo (about 10 couples pitch in and rent a limo so it's not horrible.)
Yup, I should have beaten her when I had the chance.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-15-2011 at 03:41 AM..
I admit it. I created a monster. One that, sadly, could have been nipped in the bud with a few spankings early on but I was stupid and listened to the idiots out there telling me that it was wrong. I followed the rules. I let her learn by natural consequences, but she decided the consequences were worth the crime. I tried positive reinforcement...didn't work. And groundings and taking away privlidges only work if the kid in question cares and will actually stay grounded. I can ground her sister and it works because her younger sister has an active social life and relies on me for rides. It doesn't work if I gound her. She either has nothing going on in her life and doesn't care that she's grounded or just walks out the front door if there is something going on in her life. After all, what more can happen once she's been grounded? Another grounding she ignores?
Yup, I should have beaten her when I had the chance.
Wow. I appreciate your honesty. You don't see such honesty often and not many people would say what you just did!! It takes guts.
I'm sorry that you're having so many problems with your daughter. I hope things get better for you!
Wow. I appreciate your honesty. You don't see such honesty often and not many people would say what you just did!! It takes guts.
I'm sorry that you're having so many problems with your daughter. I hope things get better for you!
I hope so to. What we go through, we deserve for not realizing that positive reinforcements and time outs were not the way to go. Even if your kid is normal, you just raise a praise junkie with positive reinforcement and time outs and groundings only work if the child cares about what they're being taken away from. I just hope she doesn't end up paying a high price for our mistake.
Positive reinforcement, learning by natural consequences and time outs work for some kids but not others. THAT's what they don't tell you. Whether they work is personality dependent. Without something she cares about in her life, these punishments just don't work. Spanking otoh seems to work all the time. Why did we ever abandon something that works all the time for something that only works some of the time?
If she had a hobby or an active social life that required our cooperation, I might be ok but she doesn't. I can take her phone and internet privlidges away but then I run the risk she'll take off and I'll have no way to find her (if worse comes to worse, I can have the tracking device turned on on her phone and find the general area she's in). It scares me most when she takes off. When she does, she's angry and wants to hurt us only she doesn't realize she stands to hurt herself much more than she could ever hurt us. (She has an issue with empathy. She sees every situation through only her own eyes. How it impacts her and no one else. The therapist says that this is just the way she is. It's nothing we did wrong, though all the positive reinforcement played right into it and made it worse.)
What she really needs are negative consequences she wants to avoid in her life or a healthy fear of her parents. I'd love to hear from people who have used boot camps. It's a lot of money but if it saves my daughter from herself it would be worth it. I just don't want to do it and find out she's back to her old self in 6 months after she gets home. We may need that money for lawyers if that's the case. She knows we couldn't afford to do it twice so there won't even be the threat of sending her back.
I think my best chance is a good old Baptist revival conversion only she's an athiest. One of her issues is she cares about nothing other than herself. I would do things so differently if I had a do over. I would have forced her by whatever means I had to to do things for others and respect others when she was still small enough to control and, hopefully, set a pattern for life. Instead, I kept waiting for positive reinforcements and natural consequences to work. Turns out she doesn't care about the natural consequences.
I vote for keeping corporal punishment. I know from experience that, for some kids, it's the only thing that works. The really sad thing is she has a step brother for whom the only thing that worked was cleaning his clock about every six weeks. We had ourselves convinced that there was just something wrong with him. It turns out that that's what some kids need. That's how they learn. By having dire consequences put in place if they don't play by the rules. I keep hoping that she'll outgrow this. She sees her father and I as weak. I'm tired of walking on eggshells with her. Therapy helps but it's a slow process.
I, honestly, believe we could have saved ourselves and her a world of hurt if we'd gotten out the belt when she was little. But they said good parents don't do that anymore. THEY didn't know what they were talking about. So now, we're paying for therapy and expensive rewards when she does manage to meet goals. We set this stage with positive reinforcements. Now that's the only thing she'll respond to. There has to be a carrot or this horse doesn't move because she was raised with carrots not whips. Raise a horse with a whip and you don't even have to hit them to get them to move. Just crack the whip in the air.
What I fear is what will happen when she goes out into the real world where they will not dangle carrots just to get her to what she should do. She has no intrinsic motivation to do the right thing. Possibilities I see in her future are flunking out of college, getting fired from jobs and failed relationships. I fear it will take her until she's 30 to learn the lessons she should have learned by the time she was 15.
If you are a parent of a young child and are using positive reinforcements and time outs, SERIOUSLY, evaluate how well they are working. THAT is what we didn't do. The books all said it would work. We kept waiting for it to work. We waited too long and my daughter will pay a high price for that.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-16-2011 at 06:22 AM..
Ivory, I admire the fact that you have tried the PC new age way and admit it's a load of crap.
Parents are raising a generation that thinks it's entitled to whatever it wants, is confused about boundaries, has no concrete expectations, and look what we have; kids shoot up schools, murder parents, have no respect for anybody, do what they want, and live with mom and dad until they are 30 something.
I say keep spanking an option. When my siblings and I were told to do something, we did it because we knew we'd get the belt if we didn't. There was no discussion, we were wrong and there was nothing to talk about. Spanking left no question, no room for confusion.
I hope so to. What we go through, we deserve for not realizing that positive reinforcements and time outs were not the way to go. Even if your kid is normal, you just raise a praise junkie with positive reinforcement and time outs and groundings only work if the child cares about what they're being taken away from. I just hope she doesn't end up paying a high price for our mistake.
Positive reinforcement, learning by natural consequences and time outs work for some kids but not others. THAT's what they don't tell you. Whether they work is personality dependent. Without something she cares about in her life, these punishments just don't work. Spanking otoh seems to work all the time. Why did we ever abandon something that works all the time for something that only works some of the time?
If she had a hobby or an active social life that required our cooperation, I might be ok but she doesn't. I can take her phone and internet privlidges away but then I run the risk she'll take off and I'll have no way to find her (if worse comes to worse, I can have the tracking device turned on on her phone and find the general area she's in). It scares me most when she takes off. When she does, she's angry and wants to hurt us only she doesn't realize she stands to hurt herself much more than she could ever hurt us. (She has an issue with empathy. She sees every situation through only her own eyes. How it impacts her and no one else. The therapist says that this is just the way she is. It's nothing we did wrong, though all the positive reinforcement played right into it and made it worse.)
What she really needs are negative consequences she wants to avoid in her life or a healthy fear of her parents. I'd love to hear from people who have used boot camps. It's a lot of money but if it saves my daughter from herself it would be worth it. I just don't want to do it and find out she's back to her old self in 6 months after she gets home. We may need that money for lawyers if that's the case. She knows we couldn't afford to do it twice so there won't even be the threat of sending her back.
I think my best chance is a good old Baptist revival conversion only she's an athiest. One of her issues is she cares about nothing other than herself. I would do things so differently if I had a do over. I would have forced her by whatever means I had to to do things for others and respect others when she was still small enough to control and, hopefully, set a pattern for life. Instead, I kept waiting for positive reinforcements and natural consequences to work. Turns out she doesn't care about the natural consequences.
I vote for keeping corporal punishment. I know from experience that, for some kids, it's the only thing that works. The really sad thing is she has a step brother for whom the only thing that worked was cleaning his clock about every six weeks. We had ourselves convinced that there was just something wrong with him. It turns out that that's what some kids need. That's how they learn. By having dire consequences put in place if they don't play by the rules. I keep hoping that she'll outgrow this. She sees her father and I as weak. I'm tired of walking on eggshells with her. Therapy helps but it's a slow process.
I, honestly, believe we could have saved ourselves and her a world of hurt if we'd gotten out the belt when she was little. But they said good parents don't do that anymore. THEY didn't know what they were talking about. So now, we're paying for therapy and expensive rewards when she does manage to meet goals. We set this stage with positive reinforcements. Now that's the only thing she'll respond to. There has to be a carrot or this horse doesn't move because she was raised with carrots not whips. Raise a horse with a whip and you don't even have to hit them to get them to move. Just crack the whip in the air.
What I fear is what will happen when she goes out into the real world where they will not dangle carrots just to get her to what she should do. She has no intrinsic motivation to do the right thing. Possibilities I see in her future are flunking out of college, getting fired from jobs and failed relationships. I fear it will take her until she's 30 to learn the lessons she should have learned by the time she was 15.
If you are a parent of a young child and are using positive reinforcements and time outs, SERIOUSLY, evaluate how well they are working. THAT is what we didn't do. The books all said it would work. We kept waiting for it to work. We waited too long and my daughter will pay a high price for that.
Ivorytickler, I too am sorry you're having such a hard time with your daughter. It must be heartbreaking and very disappointing.
I'm not sure however, that this wouldn't have turned out the same way if you'd gotten the belt out. There's just no way to know that. You may have ended up with a daughter that's apathetic and violent. If she has a lack of empathy that's part of her personality then you may have been SOL with any disciplinary method - I wouldn't blame myself so much, there's no telling now what would have worked.
I'm not sure though, why you are paying for expensive rewards when you said that that doesn't work and the carrot method has never worked. Maybe it's time to stop doing that all together and let her suffer the consequences of her actions, both good and bad. Because you're right, the real world is not going to offer her really large expensive carrots just for doing what she should be doing.
Were the positive reinforcements you used praise or material things (ie bribes) because if they were the latter, then I also wouldn't recommend that parents do that. That seems like you would be setting a child up to expect rewards every time they do something they should be doing, which is an unhealthy expectation, as you probably already know.
It does sound from your description, however, that your daughter is a tough cookie and that just may be the cards you were dealt. I think it's good advice from you to parents to evaluate how well their methods are working and to not just assume they'll turn out alright in the end. Thanks for sharing that, and your story.
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